What should be done with sibs?

[Norm]

Well this thread has been an interesting read and certainly opened my eyes a little more to the potential pitfalls of this hobby. As someone just starting to get into breeding (if successful this will be my second season breeding) and trying to decide which direction to go, it has given me a lot of food for thought.

 

[RedFox]

I don't think the food option is viable with unwanted/unhealthy jag siblings or any euthanised reptile.

Personally, I would not risk the use of euthanised siblings for reptile fodder. Retroviruses and other nasties can tolerate freezing temperatures for prolonged periods and could prove to be a fatal snack for your python if present.

You would be taking a similar amount of risk bringing new reptiles into a collection without any quarantine measures.

Your Aspidites species would not appreciate the little ray of 'Sunshine' that could be unwillingly added to their evening meal :shock:

Just remember..

I - insufficient
B - breakfast
D - diet

or

O - over
P - priced
M - Morelia
V - veal.

This is by no means an attack on jag breeders. I am attacking the use of all reptiles as fodder for the quarantine principle. The acronyms are just for fun .

Waste not want not..

This made me laugh. While I personally wouldn't feed these to my aspidites, for the above reasons, I see no reason why they couldn't have a place in the pet food industry. Couldn't they be processed as cat and dog food. Can't be any worse than some of the stuff already in those cans? This is more what I meant in my post.

For snakes or any reptile to be bred for snake food, strict quarantine procedures and hygienic conditions would have to be maintained. Sadly enough I have read enough threads on here and other forums to not trust other people with either.

 

[TrueBlue]

Come on John it is so, your just to dam polite to say so . lol

 

[Darlyn]

This made me laugh. While I personally wouldn't feed these to my aspidites, for the above reasons, I see no reason why they couldn't have a place in the pet food industry. Couldn't they be processed as cat and dog food. Can't be any worse than some of the stuff already in those cans? This is more what I meant in my post.

For snakes or any reptile to be bred for snake food, strict quarantine procedures and hygienic conditions would have to be maintained. Sadly enough I have read enough threads on here and other forums to not trust other people with either.

Wow this is a direction I didn't see coming. Interesting to see responses of members on this point.

 

[Newhere]

I just think its sad the hobby is split and there is so much hating and we have to have a nine page long argument over an issue that has to do with illegaly acquired animals and the illegal crossing of species.

I don't know one single HONEST person that would knowingly purchase or breed one of these animals so I don't get why a jag breeder doesn't think his rep would start going downhill. I wouldn't respect nor trust anyone that breeds or keeps or sells exotics so why should a jag breeder be any different?

Just my thoughts as a newbie, this issue shouldn't exist and I shouldn't have to try to find a breeder that only breeds pure animals and can prove it to me(costing me more). I just think its very sad and very shady.

Shame on those involved in crossing species and breeding illegal animals and publicly spitting in our governments face by selling them out in the open and not even trying to hide their criminal activity.

 

[longqi]

I just think its sad the hobby is split and there is so much hating and we have to have a nine page long argument over an issue that has to do with illegaly acquired animals and the illegal crossing of species.

I am NOT singling you out here Newhere

That sentence shows the general misunderstanding of this topic
Hybrid sibling does include Jags but most definitely Jags are NOT the only snakes being bred in Australia resulting in hybrid siblings. Any subspecies or mixed species breeding creates hybrid siblings
Example diamond/jungle... diamond/bredli coastal/bredli water/coastal black head/woma etc etc

This is probably the first thread in a long time to have had valuable input from both jag and inter species and subspecies breeders
If it helps make some potential breeders think a bit more before breeding it has been a very valuable thread

People want 'pretty' snakes
"Pretty' snakes can be created through selective breeding of top quality animals as the SRX or Kraus jungles and many others clearly show. But this is a long term plan that takes a lot of dedication to do
Now it seems far too many people are trying to do achieve similar results by tossing any snakes together and hoping for a good result

THAT is the biggest problem
Most of the bigger jag breeders are known and any buyer can buy or not depending on their preferences
But a lot of 'hobby' breeders who try to get a quick fix by mixing and matching are unknown and those hybrids may look like anything at all and legally MUST be given a species or subspecies name on transfer papers

Government departments have taken the easy way out regarding this and have no interest in putting hybrid as a category on legal papers

Redfox and Darlynn
Just as I couldnt cull any siblings I also couldnt breed knowing that some would be cat food

 

[Shaggydog]

I have read these past 9 pages and I have to say that selective breeding by humans in animals is just how new breeds are sadly formed. Take dogs for example, majority of dog breeds today have been created by selective breeding in the last century or so. Look at the white shepherd for example, when the white gene originally presented itself it was seen as a genetic fault. Some people bred to establish the breed and others killed the pups as it was believed that the biitch/ sire didn't have good heritage.

Animals can't help how humans have made them, so why should they be killed because of what we have done. Personally I would never set out to buy a Jag. However I would set out to buy a Jag Sib, why? Because it's not the animals fault it has been born as it is. We're all reptile lovers here, maybe everyone should just take a step back and appreciate snakes for the creature they are and not the breed.

 

[RedFox]

Shaggydog the key difference between selectively bred dogs and snake is that snakes have shown little if any genetic defects where as dogs in some cases are pretty stuffed up.

Reptiles and Mammals can't really be compared as they are miles apart. I did use a dog example in one of my posts but that was to highlight hypothetical reactions to being forced to cull animals not a straight comparison.

As for buying a jag sib and not a jag I am genuinely interested into why that is. That statement suggests you don't support the jag part of the hobby but by saying you would buy a sib is contradictory.

After a few of the recent posts it seems the breeding of hybrids is becoming very commonplace. I still think the issue is a bit overblown in this thread, but can see how the hybrid part of the hobby could exponentially grow.

 

[Stevo2]

I have read these past 9 pages and I have to say that selective breeding by humans in animals is just how new breeds are sadly formed. Take dogs for example, majority of dog breeds today have been created by selective breeding in the last century or so. Look at the white shepherd for example, when the white gene originally presented itself it was seen as a genetic fault. Some people bred to establish the breed and others killed the pups as it was believed that the biitch/ sire didn't have good heritage.

Animals can't help how humans have made them, so why should they be killed because of what we have done. Personally I would never set out to buy a Jag. However I would set out to buy a Jag Sib, why? Because it's not the animals fault it has been born as it is. We're all reptile lovers here, maybe everyone should just take a step back and appreciate snakes for the creature they are and not the breed.

Exactly; selective breeding within a species. Snakes are not breeds by the very fact that they are individual and unique species and sub-species, which are not the same.

Not the animal's fault - the breeder's fault........ If only the people that hybridise could follow your advice and appreciate each of the individual snake species and sub-species for the creatures they are and not to mess with them...

 

[Wild~Touch]

Redfox

With all respect .. Do you really think neuro in jags is not a genetic defect ?

I am not a jag hater as I like pretty snakes but without the neuro issues

Cheers
Sandee

 

[Shaggydog]

If they were different species then in fact majority of offspring would be infertile.

- - - Updated - - -

Shaggydog the key difference between selectively bred dogs and snake is that snakes have shown little if any genetic defects where as dogs in some cases are pretty stuffed up.

Reptiles and Mammals can't really be compared as they are miles apart. I did use a dog example in one of my posts but that was to highlight hypothetical reactions to being forced to cull animals not a straight comparison.

As for buying a jag sib and not a jag I am genuinely interested into why that is. That statement suggests you don't support the jag part of the hobby but by saying you would buy a sib is contradictory.

After a few of the recent posts it seems the breeding of hybrids is becoming very commonplace. I still think the issue is a bit overblown in this thread, but can see how the hybrid part of the hobby could exponentially grow.

Understandably, however the point was more so of people selectively breeding to produce new traits in animals. Dogs were just the first example that come to mind cause I have a white shep.

Because I would take one as a pet, not for breeding. That and I have a sore spot for taking in animals that have issues

In reality even if I ever got into breeding I would never breed a cross breed animal as in most cases it is harder to find them proper homes.

 

[longqi]

I agree in some ways
But think about one breeders comments
They have 300+ jags
All bar 8 are breeding
Minimum 100 females??? laying 15eggs of which 5 are jags and 10 are hybrid siblings
Minimum 100x10=1000 hybrid siblings being sold or given away by just one breeder
That is a significant number especially because it is worked out from only one breeder

Regardless of how much exact information they give about parentage etc they cannot record that sale as hybrid sibling
Paperwork always 'proves' that snake is of pure origin
Pythons live around 25years
Can we expect that every one of those sold will be kept by the original buyer?
Can we expect that the new buyers will be told they are hybrid siblings when the paperwork says they are pure?

 

[RedFox]

Redfox

With all respect .. Do you really think neuro in jags is not a genetic defect ?

I am not a jag hater as I like pretty snakes but without the neuro issues

Cheers
Sandee

No offense taken.

I should have said selective breeding within pure subspecies/ species. I read shaggydog's post as close relatives breeding, such as in the case of dog breed establishment, as causing genetic defects.

By breeding hybrids including jags, you are actually increasing the genetic diversity and so isn't as selectively bred. Breeding of hybrids can cause a few husbandry problems as well.

These snakes could be hybrids of species with very different husbandry requirements, eg diamond and GTP. What temps, humidity, etc would these animals be kept at to ensure the longevity of the animal? I can forsee a few newbies biting off more than they can chew.

Yes I would count the jag gene being linked with neuro problems as a defect.

I am biased against jags though and have deliberately avoided mentioning them in my previous posts because I could never support the smuggling of animals no matter how long ago it was. It is for the same reason I don't support foreign GTP.

 

[Newhere]

Longqi I said illegaly acquired animals and the illegal crossing of species. In my state its illegal to cross a species like others are planning to do.

Sure people want pretty snakes and it takes a lot of hard work and years of effort and dedication but so does anything else thats worth it. The lazy crooks will always find a way to ruin it for the good guys and I think its hilarious that these jags have neuro problems and it just shows that crime doesn't pay. Maybe these people crossing species will make pretty snakes too but lets just hope they don't end up with pretty mutants like the jags are.

The sibs shouldn't exist because people shouldn't break the laws we have in place, end of story.

 

[longqi]

If they were different species then in fact majority of offspring would be infertile.

That is proving to be less true every month in regard to reptiles
First generation are often difficult to breed as with bateaters and cateaters
But burmballs etc are proving to be relatively easy to breed
Carpondros definitely can reproduce put most are very ordinary as adults

 

[Shaggydog]

That is proving to be less true every month in regard to reptiles
First generation are often difficult to breed as with bateaters and cateaters
But burmballs etc are proving to be relatively easy to breed
Carpondros definitely can reproduce put most are very ordinary as adults

Well you learn something new everyday
I find that extremely interesting as in all my learning it was always said there was little chance of offspring, guess I need to read further into reptile genetics and breeding!
Thanks longqi!!

 

[Lawra]

The sibs shouldn't exist because people shouldn't break the laws we have in place, end of story.

That exactly sums up my view on the subject.

Euthanise them all, protect our native species, heavily fine everyone who has them. If I can't keep a ball x woma abomination then why should anyone get to have jag anything?

 

[RedFox]

At the moment, to my understanding IJ and our M.s. can't be distinguished. Meaning their is a grey area and it can not be conclusively proven that a jag other isnt native. Conclusively being the operative word.

The same can be said for M.s subspecies hybrid where genetic test can't yet distinguish between them.

Also the resources to check that no one has hybrid animals just aren't there. As there are no legal ways to put hybrids on paper properly how can our licensing departments distinguish for example three different people have Morelia spilota spilota one has a pure animal, one has a hybrid, and one has an intergrade. Everyone who owns a python would have to be checked on. And then there are the people who don't have licenses.

Anyone correct me if I am wrong.

 

[champagne]

At the moment, to my understanding IJ and our M.s. can't be distinguished. Meaning their is a grey area and it can not be conclusively proven that a jag other isnt native. Conclusively being the operative word.

The same can be said for M.s subspecies hybrid where genetic test can't yet distinguish between them.

Also the resources to check that no one has hybrid animals just aren't there. As there are no legal ways to put hybrids on paper properly how can our licensing departments distinguish for example three different people have Morelia spilota spilota one has a pure animal, one has a hybrid, and one has an intergrade. Everyone who owns a python would have to be checked on. And then there are the people who don't have licenses.

Anyone correct me if I am wrong.

someone will correct you don't worry lol. my question is even if they do find a way to prove pure subs at what point of crossing back will they not be able to tell 3rd, 4th generation? the dept is under funded and will not bother checking sub crosses only hybrid crosses and even then I doubt many will be checked, mostly just empty threats....

 

[The_Geeza]

That exactly sums up my view on the subject.

Euthanise them all, protect our native species, heavily fine everyone who has them. If I can't keep a ball x woma abomination then why should anyone get to have jag anything?

Think you missing the debate and have not thought your statement through properly :shock: