You buy Petrol/diesel frpm BP? You too are part of the BP oil disaster in USA.

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The failure of society to charge the REAL cost of pollution gives fossil fuels an unfair advantage over cleaner renewable energy. How many of you buy Green Power which costs about 10% more than pawer generated by fossil fuel? Why does it cost more? Because the pricing only takes into account the cost of production and ignores the cost of using fossil fuels. Every time attempts are made to recognise the cost of excessive use of fossil fuels arguements are based on short term costs rather than the longer term costs of using dirty power. In Newcastle there is talk of reducing expansion of Aluminium smelters due to rising power costs relating to charging the real cost of electricity which is produced mainly from dirty coal powerred power stations. Emotive arguements like the loss of jobs at Aluminium smelters seem to ignore the jobs which could be created in adopting more green power. In a capitalistic society it all boils down to dollars but how profitable is it to kill the planet in the long term for a short term gain?
 
Actually i dont buy petrol from BP, usually cos its the most expensive. But if anyone would care to look into the shell pipeline and what it is doing to local communities in Africa, you wouldnt want to buy petrol there either. In fact I'm sure you'll find every fuel company has nasty skeletons in their closet....

Get a bicycle.
 
But it would be a shame for the 5000 people employed just in this country, not counting the rest of the world.

Yes it was a rather flippant remark and I would sympathize with them if they lost their jobs, but my sympathies currently lie with the thousands of fishermen, charter operators, dive boat operators and all the associated industries that have already lost their livelihoods.

Given that if by chance you are working than your super fund will own shares in BP OIL so you're right, you couldn't give a toss.
Who has said anything about poor work practices, this could be caused by something as simple as a faulty valve, a couple of bolts not tensioned properly or other simple and silly things. Time will tell, maybe.

A couple of bolts not tensioned properly would probably fall under poor work practices IMO. But yes time will tell.
 
Actually i dont buy petrol from BP, usually cos its the most expensive. But if anyone would care to look into the shell pipeline and what it is doing to local communities in Africa, you wouldnt want to buy petrol there either. In fact I'm sure you'll find every fuel company has nasty skeletons in their closet....

Get a bicycle.

All the major food companies have skeletons in their closet too, as does... well, any very large business in any industry.

Wokka is right about it being sort-sighted to use fossil fuels like coal for electricity production, but you can't use solar, wind, tidal or biofuels to make carbon-based polymers ('plastics' - including all those 'click clacks' we keep our reptiles in, and the insulation on the heating elements we use to keep them warm, and the power cords they use, and and and...), you can't use them to replace oil-based fuels in most applications (I can't see electrical ships carting our raw materials from mines in Australia to factories in China, and then goods from China back to Australia, for example, and I can't imagine them making sail ships that large either... though the thought is pretty cool!). Coal is an industry we should probably be looking at moving away from, because there are alternatives, but unless we invent cold fusion in a hurry, I can't see an alternative to our dependence on oil.
 
If you get rid of centralisation you remove the need for long distance travel and transport. Produce it locally so as not to be dependant upon fuel.Why do we need to import and export everything? To keep the transport business , which burns fuel , going. Pushbikes dont use much power but are generally only suited to short trips. Why do we need long trips? Why cant we work locally? Why cant we grow locally? Why cant we make locally? Where does most of the fossil fuel go? Into ships and planes , or into cars and trucks? One hundred years ago we got by without it, Capialism feeds capitalism!
 
Yes it was a rather flippant remark and I would sympathize with them if they lost their jobs, but my sympathies currently lie with the thousands of fishermen, charter operators, dive boat operators and all the associated industries that have already lost their livelihoods.



A couple of bolts not tensioned properly would probably fall under poor work practices IMO. But yes time will tell.

I just love it, someone who has NEVER forgotten to do something, NEVER made a mistake. Yes, I believe there was one such person about 2000 years ago.
 
If you get rid of centralisation you remove the need for long distance travel and transport. Produce it locally so as not to be dependant upon fuel.Why do we need to import and export everything? To keep the transport business , which burns fuel , going. Pushbikes dont use much power but are generally only suited to short trips. Why do we need long trips? Why cant we work locally? Why cant we grow locally? Why cant we make locally? Where does most of the fossil fuel go? Into ships and planes , or into cars and trucks? One hundred years ago we got by without it, Capialism feeds capitalism!

Agreed. Ride a bike. Don't shop at Woolies, Coles, the big food chains. Buy local meat and produce. Or grow your own. Where possible, buy second-hand stuff - Vinnies have heaps of good stuff. Invest in a solar system for your house. They're all small steps that make a big difference.
 
There are some good points there, Warwick. However, if we were, say, to produce toasters and video games and televisions in Australia rather than China, they would cost literally about ten times more. I am astounded when I look at prices in K-mart! You can buy basic kitchen appliances (toasters, jaffel irons, kettles, etc), and pedestal fans, etc etc, for under $10! I can't understand how that can be economical when the materials were mined in Australia, trucked to the ship yard, shipped to China, trucked to the factory, processed by human workers, tucked to the ship yard, shipped to an Australian warehouse, trucked to a distributor, trucked to the stores, stacked on the shelves, processed at the checkout, and all for around $6-9! It's astounding.

Western values have become so superficial it's painful. We won't be willing to give up our virtually free electrical appliances which are deliberately designed in China to be impossible to repair. A locally-made appliance would cost literally around ten times as much, and repairing it would cost around the same as the purchase price. Until we're up against the wall, people just aren't going to make those choices, and we're going to be slaves to the capitalism of China, and the carbon footprint of the machine.

Try telling people that the concept of fashion clothing is causing severe environmental damage. They'll say you're crazy. But of course, buying clothing which is made in China, out of oil, and then discarded because the fashion designers tell you that it's no longer cool (and is thus discarded, despite being fully functional) and you need the next fashion, which again, is made of oil, in China, and shipped across the ocean... it's obviously killing the planet to be fashionable. People aren't willing to change their ways, we are slaves to the system - the media tells us they need to buy the clothes, or buy the new toy, so we do. People just want to buy oil from Caltex or Mobil rather than BP, and the media tells them that it's a good thing. Of course, it changes nothing, but it's a popular option, because you're doing something, and even though it makes no difference, you can believe it does.

I don't think people understand that BP is a publicly-owned company, it is owned by regular people, most of whom don't even realise it. I might have unwittingly become an owner of BP when thoughtlessly signing up to superannuation funds, the thought has only just occurred to me. There are millions of people who own BP, there are thousands (millions?) of regular battlers who work for BP, and then there is a tiny handful of people on the board of directors of BP. If BP goes down, millions of regular people lose money from their superannuation, thousands of decent battlers lose their jobs, and the fat cats on top (the directors of BP) take golden handshakes on their way out, either retiring rich or signing up with the oil companies which will take the niche BP used to occupy. So the very few fat cats on top have little or nothing to lose, and the decent people are the ones who are hurt if BP is hurt. BP itself is just a giant, faceless corporation with no feelings, so there is no point seeking revenge against it, but that's what people are doing, rather than seeking to actually make changes, largely because they don't understand the system and don't know how to make a change. People just don't don't associate buying Chinese imports with oil, because it isn't as obvious as filling up the car (though people do that anyway).

It really is a sorry state of affairs.

Amusingly, I'm sure that if I listed the onshore oil production companies which are going to profit from this, people with the money handy would jump in and invest, even if they hate the oil industry. If you invest in oil, it's pretty funny. Oil prices go up, it costs you $5 more to fill your tank, and your stocks go up a few grand!
 
Sdaji - which leads to a new question...

Do you make the very difficult choices that would change our whole lifestyle as we know it - no oil-based products, stop import/export industries, sabotage the success of the oil companies - and change the planet?

or...

Is the world going to hell anyway and by changing things we are only pulling the bandaid off the wound slowly rather than quickly?

I was talking to a guy on the street one day, who said to me, "If you were in the desert, in boiling sun, and had no hope of survival, would you drink your last litre of water sip by sip, not enjoying it but prolonging death another few hours? Or would you have a big drink, enjoy it, and die anyway?" I'll admit, it made me think :D
 
And just for the record, I will be very, very surprised if BP does not make it through this.
 
Kristy: I have no doubt that the world is too far gone now. We're going to see some serious trouble within a few decades. We simply can't convince the whole world to stop having babies (and even if we did, it would cause population demographic problems we couldn't deal with), and we're not going to convince 3/4 of the population of the planet to commit suicide either, or enforce an age limit (Logan's Run style) either.

Even if we slowed right down and stopped being wasteful, using resources only to produce food and provide ourselves with the bare necessities for survival, we'd still be heading for global collapse, it would just take longer to get there. You can reduce what you consume, but unless you die, you're still living, breathing, eating, and at least to some extent, consuming extra resources (the fact that you're communicating with a computer tells me that, and I'm sure you're wearing clothes, have a mobile phone, have a bedroom with ornaments etc in it, and go to the shops from time to time and buy stuff you could literally survive without). I don't imagine any one of us is going to give up electricity, food or air, and probably none of us is even going to give up buying fast food and consumer toys, at least occasionally. Realistically, we as a species aren't going to slow down until we're right at the point of collapse, then, oops, we're all in big trouble. If we use the analogy of being on a train speeding towards the side of a mountain, putting the breaks on full right now means we'll smash into the mountain and die in two hours and ten minutes rather than two hours and six minutes. Your analogy of having one last glass of water in the desert isn't a bad one. I'd personally probably just have one last refreshing drink if I knew there was no hope of survival, although I'd probably be an eternal optimist and ration it out as long as possible. I'm not that optimistic about the future of the planet though. I don't think it's going to be environmental collapse which will get us, it'll be a global food shortage, either resulting from too many people and not enough land to produce food on, or from oil running out and thus us having an inability to work the land to produce the food and distribute it to the population. It's difficult to predict which will come first, but the outcome is the same. What comes next will probably resemble either Mad Max (though with less functional vehicles available), Logan's Run or Soylent Green, although the remaining people will probably not be white Americans (I won't comment further because it's too politically sensitive!)
 
Sdaji: Sadly, I tend to agree. And you're right I am wearing clothes.

So, the question remains, should each of us do our bit and TRY to make the situation a little better for the next generation? Should we continue as we please, since it doesn't matter? Is doing "my bit" actually mean that I shouldn't produce a next generation? They are all pretty serious questions, with pretty serious answers.
 
Do what ever you can live with yourself ,whilst doing it ....some people are more creative then others ,and are able to do what seems more 'GREEN' then you or I, but no person is giving the ultimate 100%...if they claim they are they're lying ...CAUSE DEAD PEOPLE DONT TALK!! ;)
 
Sdaji: Sadly, I tend to agree. And you're right I am wearing clothes.

So, the question remains, should each of us do our bit and TRY to make the situation a little better for the next generation? Should we continue as we please, since it doesn't matter? Is doing "my bit" actually mean that I shouldn't produce a next generation? They are all pretty serious questions, with pretty serious answers.

Haha! That first line threw me for a moment! :lol: I'm tempted to quote it in my signature! :lol:

I'm fairly sure we're heading for a severe event which will probably involve widespread war brought about by a global food crisis. The rest of the details are difficult to predict. It might actually be better if we get there sooner rather than later, as we might have more resources left to deal with the aftermath. Quite likely, if we bring the world to crisis point with a smaller population (which would be done through the increased consumption of resources per person, meaning that when crunch time came, there would be fewer people to be sustained on the lowered resource usage regime resulting from the crisis) we'll be better off. Almost certainly, we will be better off one way or another depending on whether we run out of land or oil first, but I don't know which is the be better option. As an individual, it is extremely difficult to know which is the best way to aim at this point, as you have to work it out in the context of the rest of the population doing what they will inevitably do, and naturally, that makes any one individual's efforts meaningless. It is possible that the best course of action at the moment would be to bring about a massive environmental and/or economic disaster to bring the severity of the situation to peoples' minds, but unless you wiped out a decent percentage of the world's population (say, at least half a billion people or so), I doubt the remaining population would take much action... perhaps they'd buy their petrol from a different outlet or eat a bit more pork rather than beef or something. To be honest, it's probably best just to enjoy what we have for the next 20-40 years, and when the ship hits the sand we can deal with it at the time, which might simply involve being incinerated by a nuke, or it might mean fighting in the civil war and eating your neighbours if they happen to be in a different faction! Or, just maybe, we'll come up with some technology which will save the day. Cold fusion allowing the partial evacuation of our planet and colonisation of Mars? I can't see that happening in time! Of course, I may have it entirely wrong, but when our population is expanding like wildfire and our planet's ability to produce food is declining... it's not difficult to put two and two together and see disaster on the horizon. If you have mice in a room with a massive bag of food, they'd go crazy, breed like mice, build up a thriving colony, and it's not until right before they all starve to death that they have any idea there is anything wrong. Heh, mice are stupid, huh? But if you want to avoid having children, you just allow the planet to be inherited by the ill-informed or selfish people who want to have more children. If one mouse decided not to reproduce, it's not like they are averting disaster, they're just going to remove their own line from the situation and let the other mice have children to see the future through.

Of course, the analogy isn't perfect, and our ability to use the planet to produce food won't suddenly stop, we'll just hit the point where demand exceeds supply, then war which will further reduce supply. Supply won't go to zero though, so there will be survivors, and avoiding having children will mean someone else's line will inherit the planet.

Hehe, it's so funny, it sounds quite insane to be talking about such severe problems decades in advance. It just sounds so unrealistic and crazy while things are still so rosey!

Actually, it could potentially come a lot sooner. If climate change stops the monsoon one year, the Asian food bowl will fail, and we could see a billion or so people without food... the cascade of problems is pretty disturbing to think about.

Then again, maybe I'm miscalculating and have it all wrong :) I certainly don't have any solid answers about the best way to go about things, it's just too complex a system, and one person just can't have any real impact unless they invent cold fusion or something. Even if we all put in a massive effort and reduced our consumption by a whopping 10-30%, we wouldn't delay the inevitable by much. We'd just be a slightly smaller (but still very large) part of the problem. You can't live, breathe, eat, wear clothes etc without consuming resources.
 
The Planet isnt in trouble , we are , the Planet will still be spinning away long after we are extinct . Eventualy some thing else will evolve to trash the place , who knows how many times it has happened already . BUT l am an optimist , l would make the glass of water last in the unlikely hope of rescue . What l do , so l can sleep at night , is THINK GLOBALY < ACT LOCALY . The choices you make every day , when you shop , when you travel and when you vote do make a difference .
 
Sdaji & Jungletrans: Agree with you both. I think it's frightening that we're only talking about major environmental disaster, global food crises, world war etc. as being DECADES in the future. It's not a long time. In the meantime, I'll continue to ride my motorbike if I can't leg it, start growing my own veggies and lambs and chickens for my family's consumption, go solar and organic, and, yes Sdaji, wear clothes! But I'll try to make sure they're sustainably produced :D I'll teach my kids to do the same, and continue to work in the aid and development field. That'll be my contribution to the next few decades before things go horribly awry.

Since there's so little time left, I think they should lift the ban on exotics. Tortoises in particular :) (I'm kidding, but I will be buying those albino olives I've been eyeing off ;) )

Feel free to quote me, Sdaji. I'm hilarious ;)
 
The Planet isnt in trouble , we are , the Planet will still be spinning away long after we are extinct . Eventualy some thing else will evolve to trash the place , who knows how many times it has happened already . BUT l am an optimist , l would make the glass of water last in the unlikely hope of rescue . What l do , so l can sleep at night , is THINK GLOBALY < ACT LOCALY . The choices you make every day , when you shop , when you travel and when you vote do make a difference .

I agree. Even if we are damned, let's go down fighting :) If nothing else it would feel pretty horrible to end it all knowing you didn't even try, and going down wouldn't feel so bad if you knew you did what you could. Although, I'm still using a computer and keeping reptiles in plastic tubs heated using electricity, so I suppose I'm not fighting too hard :oops:
 
Hahah I don't think anyone is really fighting too hard Sdaji..

I may be wrong but isn't that what happened to the Mayans? Or at least one of the theories as to why they suddenly disappeared despite being so very advanced for their time? I forget where I saw it but I think it was a documentary... they stated that the population got so big the jungle couldn't support them, food ran out, people started killing each other and that was that.
 
Yeah, same thing happened on Easter Island, and others. We're now doing the same thing on a larger scale. The same thing happens whether it's bacteria on an agar plate, flesh-eating beetles on a carcass, or planet Earth covered in humans. If a few decide to remove themselves from the situation, the ones left behind are those most keen to eat and breed.

If you think BP is bad, check this out. History is creepy in its repetition, and as we see, BP is far from unique... the coincidences are astounding! Difficult to believe, but if you check out the history, you can confirm it's all there and this US news group didn't fabricate things. The events from 31 years and one day ago are so familiar it's chilling, especially the pipeline disaster happening immediately before...

[video=youtube;7Od6dJNrw7o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Od6dJNrw7o[/video]
 
I've found the solution.....

treeman.jpg
 
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