Hybrids, against or for it? Read this!

[Jonno from ERD]

Another thing...

Everyone is saying that hybrids breed "stronger, healthier" animals. Can anyone pinpoint a single disease, ailment or problem associated with breeding true to species/locality animals?

Let me save some time here...the answer is no.

 

[Miss B]

i personally suggested the 'lending' or this persons barbata genes (breeding loan) as a means of funding their research, assuming these german barbata's are adeno free. as breeders will pay top dollar.

So you actively encouraged someone to cross vitticeps and barbata? :|

please do not PM me, or kick up dust about this un- named person, i will not name them.

Erm, why would I PM you? I couldn't care less if someone in the US has managed to get hold of a few barbata, lol.

 

[CGSwans]

What is 'adeno'? I presume it's some sort of genetic defect that affects American and European beardies?

 

[Miss B]

Adenovirus. It's a virus that has affected beardies in the United States. It causes lots of problems including a weakened immune system and dragons can become infected simply by coming into contact with an Adeno-positive beardie. Beardies can also pass the virus to their offspring. There is a test that can be done prior to breeding in order to determine if a dragon is Adeno-positive or not, but a lot of breeders do not bother and therefore the virus is being passed from one generation to the next.

 

[CGSwans]

Thanks. It hasn't reared its head here at all? Has it crossed species at all?

 

[Miss B]

The Adenovirus has been reported in P. vitticeps, P. barbata, P. henrylawsonii and I believe there was also a monitor of some sort that was found to be affected.

To date there have been no cases here in Australia (thank god). The first reported case was actually in Auckland, New Zealand, and it made it's way to the States from there. Here's some more info (article courtesy of www.thepats.info).

I wanted to inform people that they need to be aware of the Adeno virus that has been present in the bearded dragon population for quite some time. It has shown itself to be quite extensive now here in the United States. There are several strains & can go hand in hand with corona virus & the dependo virus. They are hard to tell apart due to their small structures of cells. However, the virus' are usually species specific.

Some symptoms of Adenovirus greatly vary. It is an overall suppression of the immune system which will leave them vulnerable & more prone to illness & disease. Routes of transmission have not been scientifically proven yet but are said to be fecal/oral & through the cloacal area & the egg sac. There have been no documented cases of transmission due to respiratory droplets, thus far.

Some generalized symptoms include the overall failure to thrive no matter what the husbandry consists of, inability to get the coccidia to an acceptalbe level for prolonged periods of time despite treatments. Other reported symptoms have been neurological type problems such as eye to tongue coordination difficulties which makes it hard to catch prey. Also, another seemingly common problem is called stargazing which is staring upwards towards the sky. Stargazing is basically defined as a mental dullness, abnormal posture, & the inability to move in a normal way. Other main causes of stargazing are also heat damage, trauma, & bacterial agents which are the most common sources.

One other problem we are seeing is poor or malabsorption problems with calcium which can lead to metabolic bone problems.

To sum up, Adenovirus has been around since at least 1996 here in the US. The first documented case was in a female Pogona Barbata in 1990 at th Aukland Zoological Park, New Zealand. Bearded dragons were brought over the the US in the 1980's for the pet trade & have quickly gained popularity in the reptile industry. There were 2 earlier documented cases in the early 1990's here in the US, one in 1994 in a Rankins, or Pogona Henrylawsoni, in Illinois & another one in 1996 in a Pogona Vitticeps, here in the USA.

 

[Kirby]

So you actively encouraged someone to cross vitticeps and barbata? :|



Erm, why would I PM you? I couldn't care less if someone in the US has managed to get hold of a few barbata, lol.

1. yes, for the purpose of strengthening a weakened stock, somewhat pure barbata would and could encourage adeno free, healthier stronger lines in alot of breeders stock.


although here in australia, its unnecessary to do so.

considering the outer Australian breeders have very little chance of getting more fresh blood or genes out of the country, the state of their lines dont look good. boxboy was illegally brought from Aus. unknown by himslef, or bred by his parents. either way the legalities werent to good with his arival. the most breeders can do is try to outcross their lines, they try to out cross to german giant, as these are the 'strongest' and in some cases it works. others, even the german has been weakened by lack of the new.

hybridisation between the p. vit, and p.barbata. doesnt seem to cause any harm, but rather good. this si why its so saught after. if it had similar effects to inbreeding, by opinion on the matter would differ. but considering the 'german giant' in the past. theres nothing to worry about. its better than furthur weakening by producing 'lack of' lines.

the possibility of new barbata blood (then again any new pogona blood) is a positive for the 'stocks' outcome. just imagin the royal family, only allowed to marry (thus breed) with other royality. its inbreeding between 1st and 2nd cousins. to an extent, over time this is what the outer US stock is doing. they have 'no choice'.

(although on a grand scale)

2. MissB, there are other members on this site with an interest on the subject. i didnt post it for your entertainment.

p.s. you seemed to have an interest when they got a few vitticeps (boxboy) but only when you thought you spotted him first.... :lol:

 

[CodeRed]

1. yes, for the purpose of strengthening a weakened stock, somewhat pure barbata would and could encourage adeno free, healthier stronger lines in alot of breeders stock.

although here in australia, its unnecessary to do so.

hybridisation between the p. vit, and p.barbata. doesnt seem to cause any harm, but rather good. this si why its so saught after. if it had similar effects to inbreeding, by opinion on the matter would differ. but considering the 'german giant' in the past. theres nothing to worry about. its better than furthur weakening by producing 'lack of' lines.


2. there are other members on this site with an interest on the subject. i didnt post it for you.

p.s. you seemed to have an interest when they got a few vitticeps. :lol:

just confirming how little you actually know ...

 

[Kirby]

i edited my post, and im assuming your refering to the hybridisation comment. (duh!!)

can you pull up soemepoints about the ill effects between the barbata and vitticeps. as most of the 'non hybrid' perspectives are clearly stated 'my opinion, its wrong'

it is possible between any two species to have a genetic bundle, although obviousely this wasnt all too present between these two very similar species. unless you have some studies or research codered, ????

 

[firedragon]

Dogs, Dingos, they are crossed all of the time, it takes a lot of the aggression out so they can be used as pets.

And why are Australian animals more special then from other countries?

Cross bred dogs are much better than pures, If you do it right you can take out the bad and just mix the good from both with no hassles.

You can never take out all the bad, I have seen some breeds that are good crossed yet there are plenty of pure breeds that are great, and they look better too, but in the end i think it comes down to the presonality of the dog and the way it trained and raised

 

[Moreliaman]

I think theres room in the hobby for both, theres a market for it (supply & demand), its been going on for years already anyway, i remember seeing corn x kingsnakes about 15-20 years ago.
Interesting to read others thoughts on it though.

 

[firedragon]

Wrong.

All of Australias top traininers, breeders and vets advocate purebred dogs. Hybrid dogs are not alright, only those who lack basic knowledge and feel the need to justify their ill bred mutts justify it. There is nothing that backs up that crosses are a "good" idea.

ETA: Expanding on this with cattle, cross bred cattle are not bred to be healthy. This is hybrid vigour in the flesh. They are crossed to create meat cows FAST. To reach adult size FAST and in doing this they sacrifice the HEALTH of the animal. So many people overlook this when comparing other animals to cattle. So really, comparing reptiles or dogs to cattle should only be done if you intend to eat your animals.

We should always be promoting our animals in the best manner possible. Creating a hybrid is creating a designer snake, a snake designed by humans for humans. Created only for money. That's a big issue for me, animals such as dogs, snakes and other animals that are not bred in agriculture should be bred for sound animals conforming to the standards of the animal and genetically sound.

Midol i didnt know that about the cows, i think i'm going to stop eating meat again...

 

[bump73]

All of Australias top traininers, breeders and vets advocate purebred dogs. Hybrid dogs are not alright, only those who lack basic knowledge and feel the need to justify their ill bred mutts justify it. There is nothing that backs up that crosses are a "good" idea.
.

BAHAHAHA!!!

Well of course the breeders advocate pure bred dogs it's how they make their money...

As for "all" vets and trainers advocating them....care to back that comment up with some proof???

Even pure breeds are "Hybrids" the breeding was just done a long time ago to get the dog to look or act a certain way...Just look at the labradoodles etc, wont be long till they are considered a pure breed on their own

It's like oralB saying 9 out of 10 dentists use oral B tooth brushes... RUBBISH

Ben

 

[lazybuddha]

Even pure breeds are "Hybrids" the breeding was just done a long time ago to get the dog to look or act a certain way...Just look at the labradoodles etc, wont be long till they are considered a pure breed on their own

now whose talking rubbish

 

[ExecutiveReptiles]

I think theres room in the hobby for both, theres a market for it (supply & demand), its been going on for years already anyway, i remember seeing corn x kingsnakes about 15-20 years ago.
Interesting to read others thoughts on it though.

True...KingxCorns have been around for quite some time...but the main problem is for example, what if nobody could get Cornsnakes or Kingsnakes anymore....what if the United States put a Ban on ALL export of Flora and Fauna...and you being in the UK....All you guys had would be what you have now...now speed it up 20-30 years...and during that time....All the Mixing and cross breeding....ment the people who chose to work with Pure Cornsnakes...had a harder and harder time finding them...due to the possibility that somewhere down the line of time...since the Ban...there might just be Kingsnake mixed into it...Those who truely want to work with Pure Cornsnakes are limited as to what and who they can get it from...And then people go off saying...there are no pure cornsnakes...so who cares....but at one time...someone here in America went out and caught wild cornsnakes...and bred them and ship them to the UK....at one point they where Real Pure Cornsnakes...

Of course this is a wild example...but the same thing really....The Morelia Pythons we have here in the states.... where at one point as Pure as one could get.....those who wanted to work with Coastals...could...those who wanted to work with Diamonds....Could....but as time has gone on....without the ability to refresh bloodlines with wildcaught "Pure" specimens....those options for keepers interested in working with "pure" species are dwindling.....I personally won't work with Diamond Pythons, as I personally know quite a few breeders who produced Diamonds, only to either have people question thier true pureness, or seem more interested in getting the 88% DiamondxJungle Cross that looks like a Diamond but sells for Half the price....

We here in the states have a limited gene pool of Australian Carpet Pythons....and whats sad is the lack of self control, or the overwelming urge to create something new.... no matter what the cost....Its all about them, and thier snakes...and many feel once thier offspring leave thier posession its not thier problem....thats the mentality here in the States...from my opinion....

But your right....there has to be room for both....as with any hobby, there are usually bars...limits....and once a keeper or breeder reaches those limits are bars....where do they go....Many get bored with refining or selectively breeding a certain species...they have to raise the bar, or set new limits on what they can do....It seems its part of the hobby...almost natural to "experiment"......

I just remember the first time I laid eyes on a Jungle Carpet back in the early 90's....I was in AW of it....I was thrilled to death to just own a Jungle...a REAL Jungle Carpet Python....man times have changed...or I have changed..lol.....I look back at pictures of that first Jungle, and can't imagine owning it now...lol, it was so ugly...lol

 

[bump73]

now whose talking rubbish

Kelpies and Border Collies are considered breeds yet they are a mix of other dogs, so whats rubbish about that???

Check this link for proof... No point commenting if you can't back it up

http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/6392/beginnings.htm

Ben

 

[Bapi]

I know it's been said before but crossing dog or cow breeds is not the same as crossing species, subspecies or even localities of reptiles. It's comparing apples with oranges. Because all cow breeds and dog breeds are human made. They are artificial. If you want to keep locality pure cattle well your out of luck because they went extinct several hundred years ago. Locality pure dogs are wolves.

Crossing breeds of dogs or cows is a little like crossing a striped darwin carpet with an albino darwin carpet. The net effect is that you get a return to an animal closer to the wild type. (In this example in the first generation - and unless furthur inbreeding takes place (ie back crossing) in susequent ) Cross bred dogs and cows are healthier and live longer than purebreds (on average) because the diversity of genes helps protect against inherited diseases. As an example my own dog is a labrador cross Dobermann Both breeds carry a wide range of genetic disorders - labs have elbow & hip displasia etc Dobermanns have von willebrands, wobblers etc but very few in common and as most are recessive genes the cross cancels them out. If I bred him to a third unrelated breed the same would hold true. If I bred him to his sister then those recessive genes would reappear. (he is desexed so don't worry)

Breeding locality specific does not neccessarily mean inbreeding. Inbreeding is undesirable from a health point of view and if the plan is to save a true representative of the wild population. Most zoos now try to breed locality specific but they work out who is least related to who within that popultion in order to decide who to breed from. What often happens with locality specific is that people get a pair of locality specific individuals and continue to breed from them and their offspring. They also select for the prettiest individuals and so often end up with a morph that looks very little like and is very little like the true wild specimens from that locality.
People who are serious about preserving locality pure will be outbreeding within that locality to ensure they maintain as true a record of the wild original as possible. (like the zoos do)

 

[bump73]

Totally agree Bapi...

If directed at me i'm not comparing dogs to reptiles it was in response to someone saying that "pure" dogs are superior to mogrel dogs. Was just pointing out the fact that all breeds are really mongrels at some stage anyway...

Ben

 

[Bapi]

Hi Ben wasn't directed at you. Purebred dogs are quite a recent creation and were all mongrels at some stage. They have simply been inbred & selected to all look the same as a breed standard.

Stephen (bapi)