waruikazi
Legendary
Cab Sav or Merlot? LOL :lol:
Jungle Cross GTP
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Glimmerman
Very Well-Known Member
Is banning Hybridisation going to stop the people that have already bred two sub species of Antaresia together and sell it as a childreni? Or a Diamond mother x Jungle father, produce Diamonds with dominant high yellow colour and sell it as a Gosford or High Yellow Diamond? I believe this will only strengthen this ill behaviour of misconception. All the dishonest breeders will then just identify it by what the dominant physical presentation resembles. Looks like a Diamond, Jungle, Mac, Coastal and so on.
Yes hybridisation is damaging to the purity level in the evolotionary gene pool. I think we can all agree on this, but isn't line / in breeding also (as discussed in other threads). I'm German X Welsh (I've got a damaged gene pool also :wink: Doesn't mean I don't know my background. And I still breed :lol: Even though a few will say that I shouldn't :roll: ) What about the Dingo.? Why does it then on the NSW DEC www state that no permit is required to keep a Dingo and that they are not protected? http://www.nationalparks.nsw.gov.au/npws.nsf/Content/Mammal+keepers+licence - Is it not detrimental or damaging to the gene pool for people to breed this species into other canines (Dingo x German Sheperds, Dingo x Kelpie etc)? What if this animal gets out into general wild population, becomes pack dogs etc.) Or this being obsurd because a Dingo X would be noticed in suburbia.
How many Poodle X's do we have to see before someone steps in and bans hydrid K9's. Yes I know, These are not Protected Australian Fauna, but the principles are the same.
IMO I think it would be better to keep these species on licence and registered with DEC authorities, this way when you sell an animal you will have to sell it as it is recorded in your book. But hey, rules and legislation are only for honest people.
I am enjoying this thread very much, I am glad it hasn't gone to s**t . I have enjoyed reading every ones opinions and it is good to see so many passionate keepers out there - even if our opinions vary.
Happy Herping :lol:
Yes hybridisation is damaging to the purity level in the evolotionary gene pool. I think we can all agree on this, but isn't line / in breeding also (as discussed in other threads). I'm German X Welsh (I've got a damaged gene pool also :wink: Doesn't mean I don't know my background. And I still breed :lol: Even though a few will say that I shouldn't :roll: ) What about the Dingo.? Why does it then on the NSW DEC www state that no permit is required to keep a Dingo and that they are not protected? http://www.nationalparks.nsw.gov.au/npws.nsf/Content/Mammal+keepers+licence - Is it not detrimental or damaging to the gene pool for people to breed this species into other canines (Dingo x German Sheperds, Dingo x Kelpie etc)? What if this animal gets out into general wild population, becomes pack dogs etc.) Or this being obsurd because a Dingo X would be noticed in suburbia.
How many Poodle X's do we have to see before someone steps in and bans hydrid K9's. Yes I know, These are not Protected Australian Fauna, but the principles are the same.
IMO I think it would be better to keep these species on licence and registered with DEC authorities, this way when you sell an animal you will have to sell it as it is recorded in your book. But hey, rules and legislation are only for honest people.
I am enjoying this thread very much, I am glad it hasn't gone to s**t . I have enjoyed reading every ones opinions and it is good to see so many passionate keepers out there - even if our opinions vary.
Happy Herping :lol:
SnakeWrangler
Very Well-Known Member
I never said it was not ethical for you to take from the wild, if fact if anyone is going to take from the wild then I would hope that they would only do it when it is sustainable, you are missing my point. Just because it is sustainable does not make it right, think about it, you are taking an animal from its natural environment and putting it in a box, this would have affects on that individual, there are many ways to look at a situation and hybrids are no different. Some people have suggested that one animal doesn't have heat pits and that it might somehow notice they are missing, but you cannot miss what you never had, the snakes you are taking know full well what they are missing out on.
I am not trying to start a debate on taking herps from the wild, the point I am making is completely relevant to hybrids and completely valid, as is yours. There is however a good solution that fits all, you would do better in my opinion to advocate proper management of hybrids rather than ban them because that will force people into a situation where they do the very things that you forsee happening with hybrids, if it were properly managed the problems could be by and large avoided. I mean we all know that it will happen wether it is illegal or not.
Jamie, it is only those that feel they have a "superior" opinion that would say all views don't have equal weight, in fact in my opinion ANY given situation can be resolved with both sides of an argument getting a satisfying result, it just takes work and cooperation.
Anyway, if you reply to this I will read it but I have given up on going any further with it. Just hurry up and get it banned and we can ALL go and have a beer (or wine if your into that kind of thing
) together.
I am not trying to start a debate on taking herps from the wild, the point I am making is completely relevant to hybrids and completely valid, as is yours. There is however a good solution that fits all, you would do better in my opinion to advocate proper management of hybrids rather than ban them because that will force people into a situation where they do the very things that you forsee happening with hybrids, if it were properly managed the problems could be by and large avoided. I mean we all know that it will happen wether it is illegal or not.
Jamie, it is only those that feel they have a "superior" opinion that would say all views don't have equal weight, in fact in my opinion ANY given situation can be resolved with both sides of an argument getting a satisfying result, it just takes work and cooperation.
Anyway, if you reply to this I will read it but I have given up on going any further with it. Just hurry up and get it banned and we can ALL go and have a beer (or wine if your into that kind of thing
) together.
PilbaraPythons
Very Well-Known Member
Snakewrangler
I know what you mean about the time it takes to debate and discuss this here, I am currently getting an ear full from my girl friend for not leaving the computor alone and doing some work.
This disscussion in my opinion has been interesting and I am sure it will continue.
Is there any symbols that shows yawning ?
I know what you mean about the time it takes to debate and discuss this here, I am currently getting an ear full from my girl friend for not leaving the computor alone and doing some work.
This disscussion in my opinion has been interesting and I am sure it will continue.
Is there any symbols that shows yawning ?
waruikazi
Legendary
Actually that just means you're a cross
:lol:
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Pythoninfinite
Guest
Hey Glimmerman, dingoes and domestic dogs are the same species, so breeding them together isn't hybridisation, and their behaviour probably just reflects the difference between wild (dingo) and captive-bred (dog), as does the behaviour of our snakes.
I don't agree that all arguments carry the same weight SnakeWrangler, that's like saying there is no right or wrong... ever. All we can ever hope to do with regard to hybrid reptiles is MINIMISE the problem, by giving people the information and reasons why it is a stupid and selfish (my words) thing to do. There will always be people who are blind to the consequences of their actions, but the more information they have, hopefully the better the decisions they will make.
It certainly is better to lead people to a position where they can make informed and therefore wise decisions (in this case, NOT to x breed) but if that fails, I'm afraid it might have to be the sledgehammer :twisted:
Jamie
I don't agree that all arguments carry the same weight SnakeWrangler, that's like saying there is no right or wrong... ever. All we can ever hope to do with regard to hybrid reptiles is MINIMISE the problem, by giving people the information and reasons why it is a stupid and selfish (my words) thing to do. There will always be people who are blind to the consequences of their actions, but the more information they have, hopefully the better the decisions they will make.
It certainly is better to lead people to a position where they can make informed and therefore wise decisions (in this case, NOT to x breed) but if that fails, I'm afraid it might have to be the sledgehammer :twisted:
Jamie
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Pythoninfinite
Guest
Hey Glimmerman, dingoes and domestic dogs are the same species, so breeding them together isn't hybridisation, and their behaviour probably just reflects the difference between wild (dingo) and captive-bred (dog), as does the behaviour of our snakes.
I don't agree that all arguments carry the same weight SnakeWrangler, that's like saying there is no right or wrong... ever. All we can ever hope to do with regard to hybrid reptiles is MINIMISE the problem, by giving people the information and reasons why it is a stupid and selfish (my words) thing to do. There will always be people who are blind to the consequences of their actions, but the more information they have, hopefully the better the decisions they will make.
It certainly is better to lead people to a position where they can make informed and therefore wise decisions (in this case, NOT to x breed) but if that fails, I'm afraid it might have to be the sledgehammer :twisted:
Jamie
I don't agree that all arguments carry the same weight SnakeWrangler, that's like saying there is no right or wrong... ever. All we can ever hope to do with regard to hybrid reptiles is MINIMISE the problem, by giving people the information and reasons why it is a stupid and selfish (my words) thing to do. There will always be people who are blind to the consequences of their actions, but the more information they have, hopefully the better the decisions they will make.
It certainly is better to lead people to a position where they can make informed and therefore wise decisions (in this case, NOT to x breed) but if that fails, I'm afraid it might have to be the sledgehammer :twisted:
Jamie
waruikazi
Legendary
People are going to do it weather you like it or not wether it is legal or not, that is fact. The best way to stop or minimise the the problem of these animals contaminating pure blood lines is to set up a system where they can and have to be sold legally and ethically as what they really are. Banning/making it illegal will not work, it will only make it harder to track.
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Pythoninfinite
Guest
I think it's already just about impossible to track...
J.
J.
The problem is that you don't seem able to see any side other than yours. You have decided it is best to lead people to make wise decisions as long as they match yours " make informed and therefore wise decisions (in this case, NOT to x breed) " There are 2 sides to this argument but you don't seem willing to see the other side at all. To you it spells the end of the hobby as we know it and that just isn't the case and to call people stupid and selfish really doesn't help your cause.
You have to be able to see the other side of this.
You have to be able to see the other side of this.
Pythoninfinite said:
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Pythoninfinite
Guest
Tell me how it would work in an ideal world Boa... and don't forget that you are just as entrenched with your ideas as I am, but I've probably had far longer to contemplate these issues than you (an assumption I know, but I have a feeling...)
Jamie.
Jamie.
JandC_Reptiles
Very Well-Known Member
Just go out & cross breed rattle snakes with pythons.
Film the offspring, name the title "venom" and charge a $13 cover price to watch it.
Film the offspring, name the title "venom" and charge a $13 cover price to watch it.
waruikazi
Legendary
Pythoninfinite said:
Jamie imagine a world where the things i have suggested are done.
Bang an ideal world!
To be honset in an ideal world people get to make up their own minds, the biggest plus of being able to live in an ideal world is that you are able to decide what you think is the best option. Our ideal world would in all likelyhood be the same world as we would both be free to do what we considered right.
I'm not actually sure what " but I've probably had far longer to contemplate these issues than you " means ? I have kept reptiles for more than 30 years and have seen it all over the years.
I'm not actually sure what " but I've probably had far longer to contemplate these issues than you " means ? I have kept reptiles for more than 30 years and have seen it all over the years.
Pythoninfinite said:
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Pythoninfinite
Guest
OK, so it's a new day... I'll summarise my thoughts about hybridisation, even if everybody's tired of the thread by now...
Arguments in support:
Some can be attractive animals.
Some people want something different.
Everybody should, in principle, be able to do whatever they like with their animals, regardless of perceived or real consequences.
Arguments against :
Real potential to pollute our limited captive gene pool
Most people don't keep comprehensive records (and don't tell me they do or will, because they DON'T and WON'T!), especially beyond 1 generation, or when a reptile passes through multiple collection, so beyond the breeder, who knows?
Probably (my assessment) most hybrids from any clutch/litter are unspectacular, sold to the undifferentiating pet market and spilled into the "system"
Introduction of contaminated genetic material is irreversible without euthanasing all hybrid animals
Many hybrid animals will manifestly look like their parents (one or the other) and will be largely indistinguishable from true species, but will carry their genetic pollution forward
Owning a reptile is not a right, it is a privilege permitted under licence in all states. Along with that privilege comes, not only a set of responsibilities, as defined on your licence, but also serious ethical responsibilities with regard to the future of your hobby. Nobody has yet told me how we will track hundreds/thousands of genetic mongrels once they leave the hands of their caring and responsible breeders, every one of which will advise the buyer of the provenance of their animals. It can't be done.
I consider the arguments against to be far stronger than the arguments for. Regardless of the fact that it is already happening out there, whatever needs to be done, should be done, to discourage hybridising of reptiles in captivity.
Jamie.
Arguments in support:
Some can be attractive animals.
Some people want something different.
Everybody should, in principle, be able to do whatever they like with their animals, regardless of perceived or real consequences.
Arguments against :
Real potential to pollute our limited captive gene pool
Most people don't keep comprehensive records (and don't tell me they do or will, because they DON'T and WON'T!), especially beyond 1 generation, or when a reptile passes through multiple collection, so beyond the breeder, who knows?
Probably (my assessment) most hybrids from any clutch/litter are unspectacular, sold to the undifferentiating pet market and spilled into the "system"
Introduction of contaminated genetic material is irreversible without euthanasing all hybrid animals
Many hybrid animals will manifestly look like their parents (one or the other) and will be largely indistinguishable from true species, but will carry their genetic pollution forward
Owning a reptile is not a right, it is a privilege permitted under licence in all states. Along with that privilege comes, not only a set of responsibilities, as defined on your licence, but also serious ethical responsibilities with regard to the future of your hobby. Nobody has yet told me how we will track hundreds/thousands of genetic mongrels once they leave the hands of their caring and responsible breeders, every one of which will advise the buyer of the provenance of their animals. It can't be done.
I consider the arguments against to be far stronger than the arguments for. Regardless of the fact that it is already happening out there, whatever needs to be done, should be done, to discourage hybridising of reptiles in captivity.
Jamie.
Glimmerman
Very Well-Known Member
:idea: Jamie, On this matter, How do you think a microchipping concept would work?
Say you had to register yourself as a breeder and were then given a Breeders Identification Number (supplied by your states DEC). This number was stored on a database (similar to Dogs & Cats). You then have to microchip all your offspring, and they can not leave your care until this has been done, recorded and submitted. The information recorded on the form assosiated to the ID Chip Number could be, Species, locality, Mother / Father bloodlines, Hatch Date etc.
Then it would all be recorded and that lil critter has a chip that states its background, regardless of how many carers it went through.
I can see people eyes :shock: thinking of the $$$ value, I cant forsee the initial set up costing more than $1000 per breeder. The cost of each chip is only a few dollars. If you are a serious breeder then I think this would only be a small price to pay.
Just a suggestion - {goes hides in a corner out with fingers in ears, with flame suite on} :wink:
Jamie, the problem is that as you are on the 'anti' side of the argument you will reluctantly come up with a very short list of pros and a long list of cons, that is just the way it is. You are obviously going to find more - than +'s.
The thing I object to is this sort of statement " whatever needs to be done, should be done, to discourage hybridising of reptiles in captivity. " It shouldn't be up to either one of us to decide what someone else thinks is OK or not. You don't agree with it but that does NOT mean it is unacceptable, it DOES mean it's unacceptable to you but not necessarily the majority.
The thing I object to is this sort of statement " whatever needs to be done, should be done, to discourage hybridising of reptiles in captivity. " It shouldn't be up to either one of us to decide what someone else thinks is OK or not. You don't agree with it but that does NOT mean it is unacceptable, it DOES mean it's unacceptable to you but not necessarily the majority.
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Pythoninfinite
Guest
No flame suit needed for me mate - I'm the most mild mannered bloke you could ever find lol. In principle could work well, in practice would be difficult due to the size of the animals when they are sold. You probably couldn't microchip a carpet youngun till it was about 18 months-2yo I would say. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, or there ar very small ones available now.
I know there will always be people out there doing this stuff regardless, but the fewer of them the better, and if we as a group can educate keepers to see that hybridising will be harmful in the medium - long term, and if the discouragement is generally successful, then we've had a win.
Jamie.
lol. In principle could work well, in practice would be difficult due to the size of the animals when they are sold. You probably couldn't microchip a carpet youngun till it was about 18 months-2yo I would say. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, or there ar very small ones available now.I know there will always be people out there doing this stuff regardless, but the fewer of them the better, and if we as a group can educate keepers to see that hybridising will be harmful in the medium - long term, and if the discouragement is generally successful, then we've had a win.
Jamie.
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Pythoninfinite
Guest
No flame suit needed for me mate - I'm the most mild mannered bloke you could ever find lol. In principle could work well, in practice would be difficult due to the size of the animals when they are sold. You probably couldn't microchip a carpet youngun till it was about 18 months-2yo I would say. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, or there ar very small ones available now.
I know there will always be people out there doing this stuff regardless, but the fewer of them the better, and if we as a group can educate keepers to see that hybridising will be harmful in the medium - long term, and if the discouragement is generally successful, then we've had a win.
Jamie.
lol. In principle could work well, in practice would be difficult due to the size of the animals when they are sold. You probably couldn't microchip a carpet youngun till it was about 18 months-2yo I would say. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, or there ar very small ones available now.I know there will always be people out there doing this stuff regardless, but the fewer of them the better, and if we as a group can educate keepers to see that hybridising will be harmful in the medium - long term, and if the discouragement is generally successful, then we've had a win.
Jamie.
PilbaraPythons
Very Well-Known Member
I think you would get a real surprise what the majority really think of people cross breding species Boa. And I am not just talking about reptile keepers.
Any way that enough from me today, I am off to work. Have a good day guys.
Any way that enough from me today, I am off to work. Have a good day guys.
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