Rock Python

[AUSHERP]

were you in fact offered an oenpelli? do you have any photos or some sort of evidence that it is an oenpelli and have the people who offered you claimed it to be legal? i for one would llike to know if there are any on paper????

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Dear Dan,

I can report that, anecdotally, there ARE reports of a decline in the apparent numbers of oenpelliensis, from field people who have spent decades in the area, observing the decline of many species during that time. One, in fact, is a member here, although I've not seen him online in recent days.

Why the strident tone of your note here? I still prefer to listen to the opinions of professional people who have been making field observations over the past 2-3 decades, whether or not the info is in hard-copy. You have 'inferred' that their population size is small - on what basis can you make that assumption without 'adequate data'?

Jamie.

 

[DanN]

Dear Jaime and Peter,

It was not my intention for the response to have a strident tone - please accept my apologies.

I too like to listen to those that have significant experience in an area. My assumption of a small pop. size is exactly that - an assumption. My point was that we cannot assume the species is under threat (just as we cannot assume they are thriving) without "adequate data". From what I know (which may not be much), I would assume that toads would not have a significant impact on this species. That is my opinion, based on my assumptions, and, could be 100% wrong - but who knows?

Finally, (and please don't think I am being argumentative for the sake of it) while I respect the anecdotal reports of the likes of Greg Miles, Ian Morris and others who have spent considerable time in the area, I find it hard to believe that these reports are worth a whole lot unless these folk have been putting transmitters into the snakes, as to the best of my knowledge, they weren't exactly common before the arrival of toads.

That is of course my opinion. In summary, I am not claiming anything outrageous, well, no more outrageous than assuming a drastic decline in Oenpelli pythons...

Dan

 

[Gundeman]

I have worked around the western edge of the Arnhem escarpment on and off for about 20 years, including work on fauna surveys. The evidence for catastrophic mammal decline is overwhelming. As Nephrurus so succinctly pointed out, Oenpelli Pythons eat mammals, and mammals are declining, so it is not a long bow to draw to assume that as the food that they eat is no longer there, the pythons themselves are going to become less common. They have never been a common species by any measure, and as the country they live in is largely inaccessible, estimating population abundance even if they were common is going to be a difficult task. As for sticking radio transmitters on these snakes to learn more about them, that is a wonderful idea- unfortunately, I imagine the mountains of red tape one would have to carve through to undertake such a study (Northern Land Council for land access, NT parks for permit to interfere with native animals, Kakadu permit to conduct research in a national park, Animal Ethics approval to put in a transmitter, finding a vet that everyone is happy with to do it, compulsory involvement of Traditional Owners- and working out financial restitution to said TOs) even before you had found a snake makes such a study proposal close to la la land. I doubt that would happen.

Native mammals are NOT being replaced by non-native mammals, and Cane toads, which are poisoning mammals that OPs feed on (quolls and phascogales) are also feeding on those animals that quolls and phascogales fed on. The hot late-season landscape-scale burns which are hitting the stone country where these snakes occur are knocking out the food plants for rock-rats, tree rats, and rock-ringtail possums. There is less food for these snakes and all major predators- it is that simple.

Sadly, traditional owners in that area have lost a tremendous amount of traditional knowledge, especially with regards to the fauna of the stone country which is quite simply-hard work. If you have the choice between gong to the supermarket for a few kilos of beef, or going into the stone country (where it is often around 40 degrees C during the day) and climbing up and down boulders through hibiscus looking for protein- which would you choose? I only know one woman TO who I am confidant can distinguish between a Children's Python and an Oenpelli Python.

I am opposed to the illegal, unregulated trade in reptiles, to the collecting mentality that sees these marvellous components of ecosystems reduced to their monetary worth or as tools to prop up fragile egos- but in the case of the Oenpelli Python, a captive population really does need to be put in the hands of our best and brightest breeders. A genetic database held by a government authority under the watchful eye of an impartial scientific body could be used to ensure outbreeding and to cross-check the legality of captive specimens to reduce poaching.

Having seen an Oenpelli Python in the wild, draped over a Kombolgie Sandstone Boulder under an Allosyncarpia in my torchlight, I know I am one of the lucky few. I hope that same snake is still in the area where I left it untouched, and am concerned that such a snake may find its way into the hands of the highest bidder, without regards to its conservation, its cultural value or its intrinsic value as a top-order predator of one of the oldest environments in Australia.

 

[Bushman]

Excellent post Gundeman! You a few others in this thread have brought great insight and common sense to this discussion.
So many other comments are highly speculative and mere conjecture.

P.S - The notion that native prey items can be readily replaced by the ferals that displace them (e.g cats) as sufficient prey for native apex predators is ridiculous.

 

[-Peter]

Dear gordon,
My initial post may have held some elements of fecitiousness but I was genuine in my comment that the thread was interesting and did arise from a mistake. I merely stated otherwise that there appeared to be many experts on the Oenpelli python. Possibly more than the number of known animals.
As to my response to Dan. I felt his response to my post may have placed in firmly in the multitudinous expert category thus adding credence to my comment albeit that there are though several persons posting in this thread whom I hold in some regard.

 

[AUSHERP]

if it was done right and how gundeman describes, a breeding project would be fantastic, what avenues need to taken to set something up? is it impossible? does anyone here know anything thats in the pipelines?

 

[Slickturtle]

Great post Gundamen

Hello Gundamen,

Well said and I share your view up to a point. Maybe we diverge when it comes to captive breeding. You seem luke warm about it. I feel that it is imperative that the Govt. sponsors some of these snakes into a formal captive breeding set up. If Woinarski says that he does not know for sure what is going on with Nawaran's, but acknowledges anecdotal evidence of decline in the wild - that is enough for me. Imagine if it were your life savings in a bank with the Banking Regulator saying that "your money is now officially listed as 'Vulnerable' and that there is some evidence of decline in your savings. We don't know what is going wrong with your savings and all the other banks in your area are going down the gurgler." How would you feel? Would you say "She's right mate." "I will just leave it there anyway". "I won't reduce the risk by withdrawing some of my money and putting it into a safe deposit." As with the snake, what harm would be done in doing that? Even under the banner of the Precautionary Principle the right thing to do is to set up a breeding colony.

You need to consider 'harm done' if you do and 'harm done' if you don't. EG if the snake is going down the gurgler and you take some into a safe breeding setup - then would you not all agree that this is a good thing? On the other hand, if the snake is secure in the wild (but Woinarski clearly says that it is not - otherwise why would he have it listed as 'Vulnerable") then what harm would be doe by taking some into a safe breeding setup? None at all i would suggest. Now consider the potential 'harm done' if we do nothing!

Someone else said that captive breeding of Oenpelli's will encourage illegal activities. I don't accept that risk on 2 grounds - but I could be wrong - (1) there is nothing (apart from the Rangers in Kakadu who don't go out much at night) to stop poachers going out there and catching some snakes right now - if they can find any and (2) if legal snakes started popping up on the market then, whether they are legal or not is, in someways, less important than the other side of the coin which says that (if they do appear on the market) this means they are obviously no longer heading for total extinction. As a conservationist, I find it more worrying if no snakes are on the market at all at the same time as the pre-eminent authority J W. says that they may be in decline and should be listed as "Vurnerable"!

Finally Gundamen, how about looking at captive breeding this species from another perspective. How do you feel now about Egernia obiri? John Woinarski has classified it as "Extinct" and I believe this means totally extinct as I know of none in captivity anywhere. As you know, this big Egernia has the same distribution as the Nawaran. Do you think some of these should have been taken into safe custody for captive breeding or no? I know that ten years or so ago people were saying that there is no evidence of it being in decline, and where is it now? How do you think this magnificent, meaty Egernia would have gone into extinction if it was taken into captive breeding ten years ago?

Over to you.

Slickturtle

 

[Kristy_07]

how about looking at captive breeding this species from another perspective. How do you feel now about Egernia obiri? John Woinarski has classified it as "Extinct" and I believe this means totally extinct as I know of none in captivity anywhere. As you know, this big Egernia has the same distribution as the Nawaran. Do you think some of these should have been taken into safe custody for captive breeding or no? I know that ten years or so ago people were saying that there is no evidence of it being in decline, and where is it now? How do you think this magnificent, meaty Egernia would have gone into extinction if it was taken into captive breeding ten years ago?

I think this sounds like a good point to me. But I have no expertise in the area. Just to clarify.

Also, facetious is a great word. But only if it's spelled correctly

It's really easy to remember - it's the only work in the English language to contain all the vowels, in their rhyming order. See? FACETIOUS - A E I O U. (Sorry, I couldn't help it. Pet peeve. Back on topic.)

 

[-Peter]

I question why a captive population needs to be placed into the hands of anyone. For what purpose? Reintroduction? Pet trade?
I find most calls for captive populations rather dubious.

Kristy_07. Education is a great work(sic) too. It has all the vowels as well along with a few more

AUTOMOBILE
EVACUATION
REMUNERATION
REGULATION
MISBEHAVIOUR
AUTHORITIES
AUTHORIZE
AUTHENTICATION
PRECAUTION
MIRACULOUSNESS
MISDEMEANOUR
PREAMBULATION
AURIFEROUS
MENSURATION
TAMBOURINE
UNOSTENTATIOUS
UNOBJECTIONABLE
MULTIMILLIONAIRE
CONSEQUENTIAL
PRECARIOUS

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I can see two sides to this coin, and I lean towards the securing a captive population to ensure the survival of the species. However, I understand the sentiments surrounding the commodification of native species - I come from way back, with a museum background, so have never been enamoured with the notion of reptiles as 'pets' in the commonly accepted sense.

An excellent post Gundeman, I'm sure there are arguments both for and against, but I feel that letting something become extinct because we can't figure out an 'ethical' way of solving the problem is a bit like fiddling while Rome burns...

Jamie.

 

[GeckoJosh]

I think this sounds like a good point to me. But I have no expertise in the area. Just to clarify.

Also, facetious is a great word. But only if it's spelled correctly

It's really easy to remember - it's the only work in the English language to contain all the vowels, in their rhyming order. See? FACETIOUS - A E I O U. (Sorry, I couldn't help it. Pet peeve. Back on topic.)

You do have a way with works Kristy :lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

[Slickturtle]

Gosh Peter, I did forget to say why! Why we should put them into captive breeding.

Not for reintroduction - that probably won't work. No, not for people to sell, buy, trade, neglect and hybidise as pets, that is selfish and anthropocentric.

I reckon we should do it because we are morally and ethically obliged to do so. These critters, along with their habitat, are in our care whether we like it or not. You could use your argument with indigenous people the world over. "If they are not up to speed in the modern world with all its ills - them let em sink." Why should we - the dominant race - go out of our way to save them?" This is Darwinism after all.

But I can't think like that. I can only think that being Human means being able to care about others including other creatures. I reckon that our planet and we, Homo sapiens, are dirtied every time another species goes belly up. After all it is our mismanagement of the place that is sending them down the gurgler.

Whew, that was a bit deep wasn't it? I promise not to do it again!!

Slickturtle

I question why a captive population needs to be placed into the hands of anyone. For what purpose? Reintroduction? Pet trade?
I find most calls for captive populations rather dubious.

Kristy_07. Education is a great work(sic) too. It has all the vowels as well along with a few more

AUTOMOBILE
EVACUATION
REMUNERATION
REGULATION
MISBEHAVIOUR
AUTHORITIES
AUTHORIZE
AUTHENTICATION
PRECAUTION
MIRACULOUSNESS
MISDEMEANOUR
PREAMBULATION
AURIFEROUS
MENSURATION
TAMBOURINE
UNOSTENTATIOUS
UNOBJECTIONABLE
MULTIMILLIONAIRE
CONSEQUENTIAL
PRECARIOUS

 

[waruikazi]

Someone else said that captive breeding of Oenpelli's will encourage illegal activities. I don't accept that risk on 2 grounds - but I could be wrong - (1) there is nothing (apart from the Rangers in Kakadu who don't go out much at night) to stop poachers going out there and catching some snakes right now - if they can find any and (2) if legal snakes started popping up on the market then, whether they are legal or not is, in someways, less important than the other side of the coin which says that (if they do appear on the market) this means they are obviously no longer heading for total extinction. As a conservationist, I find it more worrying if no snakes are on the market at all at the same time as the pre-eminent authority J W. says that they may be in decline and should be listed as "Vurnerable"!

If they are available on permit, people who have them may go out poaching, then claim that they have bred them. Those animals can then be sold on permit. I think most people wont touch any animal that is off permit which i think makes for a small market in black market reptiles, however once a paper trail can be set up the market expands to just about anyone. These animals could have a market price well in to the tens of thousands, which would make these activities very attractive to some.

There are ways to have captive populations without them being in the hands of private keepers.

Oh and my favourite word is Rythym.

 

[Slickturtle]

A busy and good thread

Hello Waruikaz

(1) My bet is that if they were available on permit that the Compliance people in Parks and Wildlife would take more than casual interest to follow the fortunes of the permit holder. Because he, she would be the only person in the world breeding, selling baby Oenpellis, each specimen would be traceable back to that one person. If a young one turns up in Sydney or Adelaide without a paper trail then it is illegal.
(2) If people with a permit "go out poaching" -- good luck to them I say. It is highly unlikely that they would find any. In fact they will have trouble finding breeders under their permit. In addition I fail to see how they could declare a single young one - suddenly - without the evidence of a breeding/ egg laying story. In addition - they cannot sell a poached one (or a legally bred one) out of the NT without an Export Licence. Parks and Wildlife are not silly enough to issue that license without seeing the evidence of the full breeding sequence.
(3) Any person lucky enough to have a permit to collect and keep Oenpellis will have to be in regular and close contact with the authorities. A person who gets to this heady, trusted status in the eyes of the authorities is not going to risk it all by trying on some fumbling attempt at trafficking under the watchful gaze of the Compliance people.
(4) As you say, there are ways of having captive populations outside of private hands. BUT - most of these are last gasp, desperate attempts by state Governments to stop a species going belly up on their watch. They always leave it till too late and then dont have the genetic diversity to make the whole scheme viable. It can be hugely expensive to do these last ditch efforts. Alternatively, if you farm out the animals (before they become rare - such as the Oenpelli Python) to trusted Wildlife Keepers, as happened with the Naretha Blue Bonnet Parrot in WA and the Rough Scale Python, then the Government can get far greater genetic diversity out into multiple captive breeding situations at almost nil cost to the Government. Then - of course - as the animals breed and become more common the price comes down and it is no longer economically viable even for a Humpty Doo reptile botherer, to clamber around the Kakadu rocks at night trying to poach one. But, as long as they are rare and valuable then people are far more likely to do just that.

But that is just my take on it. I don't really know much about how the reptile world works. I have only ever had a 3 or 4 Oenpelli Pythons as pets. They are nice snakes though!

Cheers

Slickturtle

If they are available on permit, people who have them may go out poaching, then claim that they have bred them. Those animals can then be sold on permit. I think most people wont touch any animal that is off permit which i think makes for a small market in black market reptiles, however once a paper trail can be set up the market expands to just about anyone. These animals could have a market price well in to the tens of thousands, which would make these activities very attractive to some.

There are ways to have captive populations without them being in the hands of private keepers.

Oh and my favourite word is Rythym.

 

[Gundeman]

To Slickturtle

Slickturtle, you have made an excellent point and your banking analogy has credit. I hope that it attracts interest.

If I came across as being opposed to captive breeding, I assure you I am not. It is the unregulated traffic in herps and the threat of exotic species and diseases becoming established that are my main concerns. As a field herp I find the breeding of morphs ("pimp my snake") for status underscores not only the removal of these animals from the communities that shaped their morphology and pattern, but the removal of humanity from nature. Captive reptiles can play a fantastic role in education and appreciation of these enigmatic animals, but if the direction that the breeding programs takes is away from conservation and towards alienation, I think we have a problem. Nawarans of course are a spectacular snake, and as such, should a breeding program succeed, there could be plenty of money floating around for the offspring, some of which I believe could be skimmed into field research if the market was regulated- so captive breeding should be encouraged.

That same point now most definitely applies to Bellatorius (Egernia) obiri- and I would like to point out that I have been saying the things are in decline for the past decade- in fact it was my correspondence with Woinarski regarding this that lead to the fieldwork that confirmed the species' decline. I concur that had a breeding program been set up for this species that a) they would be popular in collections and b) they would certainly not be extinct.

I think the reality of Nawaran is that they are so thin on the ground that illegal poaching would probably only hit a small percentage anyhow given the inaccessibility of their habitat. So I agree that for that species poaching is not their greatest threat- but what a waste if those animals removed are not placed with competent breeders and you have such a high level predator removed from the wild. Having said that, not much is known about the ecology of this species in the wild, but it is known to aggregate- if such an aggregation were removed and split into individual snakes sold all over the world that could possibly be a much bigger hit to the population as a whole. I do support captive breeding programs of all threatened species, Working out how such captive breeding programs are regulated, who should be involved, how to set up genetic databases and pay for their maintenance, and how to "put back" what is taken are the next challenges.

 

[waruikazi]

Hi Slick

Good post, it does make for a compelling argument. I agree with most of your points, parks would most likely be right ontop of those people who have the collection permits and they may even track the off spring. In a short term scenario i do agree with you. I'm thinking more of a longer term issue, but like most of this thread it is all conjecture.

Hello Waruikaz

(1) My bet is that if they were available on permit that the Compliance people in Parks and Wildlife would take more than casual interest to follow the fortunes of the permit holder. Because he, she would be the only person in the world breeding, selling baby Oenpellis, each specimen would be traceable back to that one person. If a young one turns up in Sydney or Adelaide without a paper trail then it is illegal.
(2) If people with a permit "go out poaching" -- good luck to them I say. It is highly unlikely that they would find any. In fact they will have trouble finding breeders under their permit. In addition I fail to see how they could declare a single young one - suddenly - without the evidence of a breeding/ egg laying story. In addition - they cannot sell a poached one (or a legally bred one) out of the NT without an Export Licence. Parks and Wildlife are not silly enough to issue that license without seeing the evidence of the full breeding sequence.
(3) Any person lucky enough to have a permit to collect and keep Oenpellis will have to be in regular and close contact with the authorities. A person who gets to this heady, trusted status in the eyes of the authorities is not going to risk it all by trying on some fumbling attempt at trafficking under the watchful gaze of the Compliance people.
(4) As you say, there are ways of having captive populations outside of private hands. BUT - most of these are last gasp, desperate attempts by state Governments to stop a species going belly up on their watch. They always leave it till too late and then dont have the genetic diversity to make the whole scheme viable. It can be hugely expensive to do these last ditch efforts. Alternatively, if you farm out the animals (before they become rare - such as the Oenpelli Python) to trusted Wildlife Keepers, as happened with the Naretha Blue Bonnet Parrot in WA and the Rough Scale Python, then the Government can get far greater genetic diversity out into multiple captive breeding situations at almost nil cost to the Government. Then - of course - as the animals breed and become more common the price comes down and it is no longer economically viable even for a Humpty Doo reptile botherer, to clamber around the Kakadu rocks at night trying to poach one. But, as long as they are rare and valuable then people are far more likely to do just that.

But that is just my take on it. I don't really know much about how the reptile world works. I have only ever had a 3 or 4 Oenpelli Pythons as pets. They are nice snakes though!

Cheers

Slickturtle

 

[Bushfire]

If they are available on permit, people who have them may go out poaching, then claim that they have bred them. Those animals can then be sold on permit. I think most people wont touch any animal that is off permit which i think makes for a small market in black market reptiles, however once a paper trail can be set up the market expands to just about anyone. These animals could have a market price well in to the tens of thousands, which would make these activities very attractive to some.

There are ways to have captive populations without them being in the hands of private keepers.

Oh and my favourite word is Rythym.

With a paper trail comes a DNA trail. DNA cant lie, and any underhand activities quickly get founded among rare, high value animals. A perfect example of this is with the Black cockatoos breeders. If all the orginal pythons had their DNA sampled, you may try to fake a paper trail but you cant a DNA trail.

One of the greatest success stories have been the Rough Scaled Python. Its been breed to the point where I doubt any poaching occurs and has ensured that the species will live beyond any wild population crashes should they occur. Now if only we can convience John (or someone of similar experience) to take up this cause to establish a captive population. Im sure if $$ were the sticking point in the operation, there would be heaps of people wanting to invest in it. It would be a massive shame if we let another species suffer extinction when there is a cost efficent readily available way of establishing a brighter future for them.

There are other ways of establishing a captive population than in private hands. But so far this isnt getting results. How long have the Territory Wildlife Park had their pair for? The results so far are speaking loud and clear. In private hands that pair did breed. That may be a little unfair to the park and their staff, who Im sure are trying their best but private individuals have had further more consistant results than most zoos when it comes to captive breeding.

 

[cockney red]

Hey all- I've recently been offered a nothern territory rock python (liasis oenpelliensis)

Haven't seen any aound and just wondered if anyone here kept/bred/knew anything about them..

When you breed your Openilli snake next year, can I have a hatchling to keep my spotted company...:lol:
On a seriouser note, this is a quality thread, with quality input from informed people in the hobby. Its threads like this that keep me from imploding when I read the majority of threads, on a day to day basis.......

 

[Pythoninfinite]

In the longer term Gordo, it wouldn't be so critical - once the numbers are up in the hundreds, as is the case with the RSP, what is the point of tracking every animal. The energy and money spent by state 'authorities' in an attempt to track every Australian animal from birth to death, across decades, across multiple owners and across borders is simply an obscene waste of money and as far as 'conservation' goes, a total waste of resources. (That NSW even includes mixed-race Carpet Pythons in it's species list is a total mystery to me - what purpose does the gathered info serve?)

Certainly the compliance of those involved in any species recovery effort is important, but beyond a reasonable point, when a species is established in captivity, what's the point...

Jamie