Tiliqua experts required

[LippyM]

Hi, I need your help.

Please PM me if you can offer first hand and practical advice, preferably from experienced long term keepers or anyone who has studied, or is studying, veterinary medicine or animal psychology.

My name is Lisa and I have been a reptile keeper for 10 years. I live in the Blue Mountains west of Sydney and have 2 bluetongues, 2 shinglebacks & 2 pythons.
They are all wonderful additions to our household.

I need help with one of my shinglebacks. Santos will be 5 in February and is a Tiliqua Rugosa Asper.

To cut a long story short, he is super active - practically hyperactive - but he just won't eat!

This is not a heat problem, a setup problem or a newbie problem.

We are entering our another summer and it looks like once again it's going to be a frustrating season of handing feeding, vitamin injections & supplements.

This is a hyperactive lizard that simply will not stop long enough for food. He has the attention span of a tissue.

You get one snail or one piece of meat into him by hand, maybe one more on a good day, and then his attention is diverted and off he goes again.

So every night or every second night I have to hold him down and either stick his nose into sloppy dog food and he licks away for about 20 seconds and then he's off, or I have to open his jaws enough to stick a piece of meat into his mouth and let the chewing reflex take over (although half the time he just spits them out) and then chase after him with more bits of meat. And then finally, as needs must, I give him a syringe of sandoz liquid calcium. No point leaving him a plate of food during the day, he just walks all through it.

We honestly believe he either has a psychological problem or the only other thing I can think of is that he is missing an enzyme or protein or even a gene that makes him hungry.

Sometimes we think he's hungry, he will seem interested if you stick your fingers in his face with or without food, but he'll have a lick and that's it.

We thought maybe he had become sexually mature and was looking for a mate, so we bought him a girlfriend. She might as well be invisible!

Has anyone ever experienced this? What can I do to make him interested in not only eating, but eating by himself again?

I have a great herp vet, Rob Johnson @ South Penrith Vet Clinic.
The thing is, he sees a generally healthy, active, robust lizard, when in fact it's a lizard that I have to spend half an hour every night trying desperately to get any kind of food I can think of into his mouth.

He thinks I am a worrier. I'm not. I have kept reptiles long enough to know my shingleback is not normal. He was yes, but now he's not.
I don't know why, I just want to fix the problem.

If anyone can help me, if anyone knows why an active (too active), alert, friendly lizard will not eat, please tell me. I am desperate. Are there medical tests that can be run?

We will go back to the vet soon, but I'm hoping I can go with a good news story. Otherwise Dr Johnson is going to keep my Santos till he finds out what's wrong with him!

This lizard is up and active climbing the walls at 5am (before his heat light comes on) and is still going strong at 10pm at night (hours after his heat light has gone off).
Every. Single. Day.

His timeline:

Feb 2006: Santos was born

July 2006: We got Santos. A super eater! He ran for food! Ate anything - fruit, veg, live food, dog food, egg etc. Ate anything.

Summer 06/07: No problems. Active and hungry.

Winter 2007: Brumation from March to July.

Summer 07/08: Bounced out of brumation super active but still a great eater. We bred snails for the first time and he completed the summer with an appetite strictly for snails and blueberries.
Hand fed mostly.

Winter 2008: Brumation from March to July

Summer 08/09: Bounced out of brumation super active, climbing walls, loungeroom, backyard all day. Also most nights. But won't eat! Try the old 'he won't starve himself, he'll eat when he's hungry'.
He began to develop hypocalcaemia. Received Vit B & Calcium injections, regular sandoz by syringe.
Began to practically forcefeed him - snails, bits of raw beef, chicken, sticking his head in dog food. Crap diet but it kept him at a healthy weight. Will not eat off a plate or off his own bat.

Winter 2009: Brumation March to July

Summer 09/10: Same as Summer of 08/09, however will now eat snails & blueberries sparingly but not enough to prevent onset of hypocalcaemia. Force feeding time again.

Autumn 2010: Thought he might be looking for a girlfriend so we got him a mailorder bride from SA, hoping this year he might get his leg over and become a lazy lizard.

Winter 2010: Brumation March to August

Present: It's beginning again. No interest in food, no interest in his lovely girlfriend. Only interested in being somewhere other than where he is at that point in time.

 

[Sock Puppet]

Have you tried a fuzzy mouse? Not the healthiest option (in normal cases only recommended to be used very sparingly), but my blueys go beserk for them on the rare occasions they are offered. A completely different feeding response than with snails, tinned meat, vegies & fruit etc. I don't know what it is, but it really (& I mean REALLY) switches them on. You could use this to at least try & trigger normal feeding again, or to put some weight back on him, but this shouldn't be a long term solution if it even works. Good luck.

 

[LippyM]

Hi there, thanks for your response.
Nope, I have the only lizard not interested in mice! Pinkies, fuzzies, mice or rats - doesn't like any of them.

My others love them (they get one for Xmas!), and Santos used to like them but he just walks straight over them now. If they're cut in half he'll lick their guts but won't open his mouth to take it.

The best way I can describe it is that he doesn't know that eating keeps him alive so he doesn't waste time with it. :?

 

[FAY]

Is he losing condition?

Is he in his own tank?

All I can think of, is the tank hot enough?

I know that our western blueys were not great eaters most of the year. They never lost condition. Maybe now he is grown he feels that he doesn't need much too eat??

 

[LippyM]

Hi Fay, thanks for your concern.
Yes, he has his own tank. 4x2ft, same as all the rest.
In fact, sometimes he even has his own room! When we get tired of the endless climbing the sides of his tank, he has a room to himself that we converted to like an indoor bluey room. However, all that means to him is more room to walk and more walls to climb.

He loses condition quickly due to his excess activity. He starts the summer at at about 600grams and we struggle to get him to 700grams by the end of the summer. Then he wakes up, starts his pacing and is back to 600 or below even in a few weeks.

We are desperately trying to reverse things this year before the cycle starts again. He woke up last week.

You sound like my vet! He says Santos doesn't feel the need to eat and I should trust that.
But all the vet sees is the lizard that I've struggled to pump full of 'junk food' and even then he's bordering on hypocalcaemia and needs injections.

It's not a healthy life for Santos ... or me!
I will take him to the vet again, no doubt in a couple of weeks when he starts showing deficiency signs, but this time I'm staying till they find out what his problem is!

Am hoping in the meantime that someone has suggestions that might provide the miracle cure we're so desperately hoping for.

Here's the nutjob in person

 

[REPTILIAN-KMAN]

Hi Lippy M,
We all know our reptiles more than anybody else including our VETs i too see Dr Rob for all my reptile and vet needs, He sees all my Reptiles and i am one of largest customers bill wise ( all my reps get checked, Worming injections, the full vet treatment at Dr Robs ). yes i dont keep shinglebacks at all but they have been offered to me by breeders for sale, i cant offer advice only to say contact the southern cross uni in townsville or find a speacialist in lizards, maybe make an outdoor lizard enclosure for him were he is more in the open air, he could suffer from stress, anxiety disorder. I would up the heat first this stimulates feeding apetites, what temps he on both day and nite.

Shinglebacks eat a wide variety of both plants and animals; Shinglebacks eat more plant food than do the other blue-tongues. Shinglebacks are not very agile and the animals they eat are mostly slow-moving. Their teeth are large and they have strong jaw muscles so they can crush snail shells and beetles.
The captive diet for this species at the Australian Museum is provided in three feeds within a period of a week. These consist of a small feed of chopped vegetables on one day, a small serving of kangaroo mince on another day as well two cockroaches, crickets snails for the third feeding. The timing and order of the diet is changed around to simulate natural conditions and prevent stereotypical behaviour (where an animal will have predicable activity patterns and essentially be waiting to be fed). This food is supplemented with calcium and vitamin powder to ensure that a nutritionally balanced diet is provided.

try more plant food, flowers, chopped vegies, cockroaches.
i know you say your not a newbie and you may have thought of all of this, but just in case you missed something.

i will also ask i lizard breeder i know who breeds quite a few shinglebacks to see if he knows the answer!
an outdoor enclosure may settle him down more though !
if i have provided information that you already knew then sorry but i thought i d give it a go.

 

[LippyM]

Hi KMan, thanks for your advice!
Yep, I've tried all foods. He used to love everything. Anything! He even ate flowers, weeds and plants in the yard. Now I can get one snail in and then he's off again. Sometimes you get to offer him a second one and he's interested but he drops it and then he's not interested and off again!

I'm trying a new tank next week. Devoid of all stimulation but a plate of food in the middle. Pump up the heat, put him in a quiet room ... I'm hoping he'll get so bored he'll eat.


It's great to see other reptile keepers concerned about my little nutjob!
Thanks everyone!

 

[PhilK]

...the lizard that I've struggled to pump full of 'junk food' and even then he's bordering on hypocalcaemia and needs injections.

He is hypocalcaemic and needs injections because he is pumped full of junk food. If you feel the need to forcefeed, at least forcefeed something good for him.

The constant moving and climbing walls suggests to me he isn't happy with where he lives.. what are his temps? Bump them up and he'll get hungrier? I find it hard to imagine an animal starving themselves to death.. herps are extremely tough, just stop feeding him and let it happen. Does he get UV light? If so why does he need injections?

 

[LippyM]

He is hypocalcaemic and needs injections because he is pumped full of junk food. If you feel the need to forcefeed, at least forcefeed something good for him.

The constant moving and climbing walls suggests to me he isn't happy with where he lives.. what are his temps? Bump them up and he'll get hungrier? I find it hard to imagine an animal starving themselves to death.. herps are extremely tough, just stop feeding him and let it happen. Does he get UV light? If so why does he need injections?

Hi PhilK, thanks for your response.
I'd like to clarify my posts as I believe your assumption that the hypocalcaemia is brought on by food are incorrect.

Signs of hypocalcaemia are showing about 4-6 weeks after waking from brumation. Upon waking from brumation until symptoms begin to present, Santos is offered a variety of food daily, of which a snail may be taken by hand. When symptoms present, he goes to the vet where he gets (in addition to his yearly worming), a VitB injection and, if required, a calcium injection.

From that point on, I begin the process of shoving a selection of foods near his face, rubbing against his mouth, until he takes something. This is usually most successful with lean raw beef, lean raw chicken, or snails. However I don't think the quantities he takes are sufficient for his activity level. He just loves to walk.

I hope this makes more sense.
I don't need to explain my husbandry as I know it is optimum for all my reptiles.

I am intelligent, confident and knowledgeable when it comes to all my animals...it is my duty as their keeper! I have an extensive library of local & international reading material on bluetongues and shinglebacks, because I have a great passion for them. I love keeping them, reading about them, seeing pictures of them!

What I have is a conundrum. I have an active, alert, friendly & vet certified healthy shingleback that if I did not feed him would quite simply not eat.

If anyone has had experience with this, whether it be a medical or psychological experience, I would love to hear from you.

Thank you to all who have replied, it is much appreciated.

 

[Asharee133]

feed him more then just meat if you have to hand feed him, get some greens into him! And you still haven't said his temps and if he has a UV light

 

[PhilK]

Hi PhilK, thanks for your response. I'd like to clarify my posts as I believe your assumption that the hypocalcaemia is brought on by food are incorrect.

Signs of hypocalcaemia are showing about 4-6 weeks after waking from brumation. Upon waking from brumation until symptoms begin to present, Santos is offered a variety of food daily, of which a snail may be taken by hand. When symptoms present, he goes to the vet where he gets (in addition to his yearly worming), a VitB injection and, if required, a calcium injection.

From that point on, I begin the process of shoving a selection of foods near his face, rubbing against his mouth, until he takes something. This is usually most successful with lean raw beef, lean raw chicken, or snails. However I don't think the quantities he takes are sufficient for his activity level. He just loves to walk.

I hope this makes more sense.

Hi Lippy, I certainly hope I didn't come off rude - I typed my response in a hurry and it may sound a bit blunt so I apologise. I'm sure you have the best intentions but his hypocalcaemia is most probably being brought on by you (after all, you are the only one in charge of his diet so where else could it be coming from?).

Do you realise snails, lean chicken and lean beef are almost completely devoid of calcium (as well as a lot of other good stuff?) Snails probably less so because of their shells but lean chicken and beef is not adequate nutrition. I appreciate his activity level is high but by the sounds of things (meat and blueberries) you are not providing him with an adequate diet.

Do you dust his food with vitamin/calcium powder? Do you provide him with UVB light? What are his temps?

 

[Chris1]

have you tried blending up a whole bunch of veges/fruit, adding water and syringe feeding?
mine love drinking from a syringe, (just diluted juice,..) but i figure ur nutjob might 'drink' food from one for you,....

just a bit quicker and healthier till you find out whats wrong,...

 

[Riggsy]

Hi
Interesting problem....I've haven't kept Shingles' ( but have kept Blueys ) anyway...Just an idea from left field...Is he lonely? Does he want a girlfriend? Is it true that Shingles' pair for life? Maybe he's sexually mature and is searching for some "release"?
Good Luck

 

[Helikaon]

what signs of hypocalcaemia is he showing? offering to much calcium can be the cause? what dose of sandos are you giving. If you beleive this is not simply breeding behaviour and want to do tests then you need to talk to your vet, you will need a full blood profile and xrays. they are your first steps. if all is normal then you discuss other options.
but to be honest, i would make changes, sterio typic behavious can be broken, but their is no use looking into behaviour until you have made sure nothing physiological is going on.

also how often does he shed

 

[Tsubakai]

Robert Johnson is one of the best herp vets in the country so I would trust his advice over any I got from unknown people on a herp forum.

 

[LippyM]

Hi all,
Your responses are all much appreciated. This is a long read, but I hope I have answered all your suggestions and questions so far. Thanks also to the PMers.

PhilK -
I very rarely dust his food (with reptivite) and I don't use powdered calcium as I have liquid calcium. When food is dusted he is even less likely to eat it. It is in this vein that we have in the past provided a balanced diet with minimal or no supplement and he has flat out refused to the point where the symptoms of hypocalcaemia occur. After that is when we go to whatever we can get into his mouth.

I have to disagree on one thing though! I believe snails to be one of (if not the best) 'complete' foods for blueys and shinglebacks!

Asharee-
His husbandry is fine. He has UV via a reptisun 3ft batten fixing although I think they are bollocks and natural sunshine is best, therefore he gets an hour outside of natural sunlight each weekday and up to 6 hours on weekends, weather permitting once the daytime temps are above 20 (or 18 with no chilly wind). He woke up last week and will probably get his first outside day this weekend.

He is in a 4x2x2 enclosure, with a 100watt basking spot and 15w UTH that together create an ambient hot side of 28-32, a hotspot 38-42, and the cool side is room ambient at anywhere between 15-20 during summer, checked regularly with a tempgun. His hot side is Dr Harry's cat litter and his cool side where food & water are is astro turf. Conditions/temps are similar when placed in the lizard room, however there are an additional three hotspots. He uses all his tank, and all his room. He likes a hot day and a cool night so the heat mat is switched off at night.

I try to provide a balance in my husbandry of natural and artificial conditions. That is, I keep my animals where possible in conditions close to the wild. Of course, their conditions are artifical and they are in no danger, but I don't agree with a strict regiment of food same day, same time, lights on and off same time every day etc. ie, some days I switch their heat light off for a day, sometimes it stays on late, sometimes it comes on later. I feed in the afternoons, sometimes in the evening, sometimes I leave food in their tank in the morning before I go to work. Sometimes I feed three times a week, sometimes only once. All tank fixings are switched regularly, and they also switch tanks regularly as well because one is a different size, two are upstairs & two downstairs so they have different viewing aspects. They all come out everyday for a wander or to sit on the lounge. Each to his own, but I don't believe in sticking a personality plus reptile like a bluetongue or a shingleback in a tank all day with no stimulation, and I also think that regularity can create problems such as if your animal is kept in the same conditions day in day out they are more likely to suffer when an anomaly occurs in their life eg a blackout for two days or a heatwave for 4. That's my way, and I am sure others have their ways, too!

Chris1-
Yes, one thing he does do is lick lick lick! He just couldn't be bothered opening his mouth. So he gets sloppy stuff such as wet, mushed up dog food (science diet), fruit or veg puree, baby yoghurt etc. The problem is he licks (he really goes for it, too) till he needs to take a breath and by then when he's ready to go in again shiny things happen and he's off Forest Gumping again. He doesn't take in nearly enough to be considered a meal.

Riggsy-
We got him a girlfriend last year, hoping that was what he was looking for. Sadly, while they enjoy eachother's company the relationship so far is strictly platonic. She's up for it and follows him everywhere but he just walks over her like she's just another obstacle. He drops lots of sperm plugs in spring as well so I don't know, he must just be shy or he finds her unattractive. Personally, I think she's the prettiest skink I've ever seen! She'll be three in March and she's a full figured gal.

Gary-
His signs of hypocalcaemia are that his legs don't work. That is, his front legs get 'stuck' to his body or as the vet describes it, he's not doing his push-ups. Activity levels remain high, he is still alert, his eyes and nose are clear it's just his legs don't work even though he still tries to. When this happens we take him to the vet and he has in the past received a Vitamin and calcium injection and at home we give him 0.25ml twice a day of sandoz.

He sheds twice a summer, usually around Christmas/New Year and then again in late Feb prior to brumation. He has a long shed cycle, it takes weeks between when he starts to look 'stretchy' to actually shedding. He brumates early (March) and wakes early. My others tend to wake late Aug even into Sept and it's a gradual awakening over a period of 1-2 weeks. With Santos, you just come home one day and find him up against a wall in the corner in the dark. And then ... it begins. When Santos wakes, we call it 'The Horror'

Thanks for the info regarding the tests. That's great info and something I will query when we're at the vet next.

Tsubakai-
I agree that Dr Johnson (and the other vets) at Sth Penrith are up there with the best in the business as well, however I don't think they are taking me seriously that 1) he eats nothing unless practically forced to and 2) that the process of doing so is stressful and time consuming for both Santos and me. I take the advice I receive from the vets as pretty much gospel as I have faith in their ability and it is in sync with everything I know and have researched about skinks. I am hoping (and actually believe) that as silly as it sounds that it is psychological and I think I can fix that with time and persistence, but if it's medical then hopefully a test can show something.

If someone, somewhere has a shingleback that is all activity and no appetite then lets compare notes!

Santos is a much loved and well looked after member of our household. He is gentle, friendly, laid back and well ... there is no other way to describe him other than to say he is - quite simply - a cool dude! He's our little hippy skink whereas Jubby is the smart one, Ralphie is the thicky, and She's the Fastest is the pretty one.

We have tried everything, read everything, consulted vets, asked at Herp meetings, emailed zoos and have now asked on a fourm, and your help, thoughts and suggestions are much appreciated as they prompt me to investigate something I may have overlooked or become blase about.

 

[LippyM]

One last thing, he loves yard bugs still.. He loves centipedes, worms (we call the dry dead ones jerky), loves lawn beetle larvae .. the ones that look like witchety grubs. Doesn't like mealworms and we have only tried him on canned crickets. At a PM suggestion I am going to try him on live crickets.

However it is impossible to have a constant supply of yard grubs. We are successful snail breeders but I have no idea about breeding centipedes! We'd love to try him on silkworms but I have yet to source them.

Sometimes we think he is hungry but it's like he's forgotten that that veg, dog food, fruit, meat, boiled egg etc is food. :?

 

[willett]

Hi Libby,
In one post you said you fed him at night.
I have a Tiliqua rugosa asper that will not eat after about 8:30am.
Her lights are on from 6am-6pm.
I have to have food in there straight away and she will eat at about
7ish most of the time. If I put food in there later in the day she wont touch it.

 

[Bushman]

I may be able to help Libby. They're an exceptionally partner oriented/pair bonded species, so he may be looking for a mate. I haven't read this thread thoroughly yet (just sped read it), so someone else may well be right but I don't recall anyone mentioning this factor.
I'll PM you and hopefully I can help you with this.

 

[LippyM]

Hi Willett - thanks for your advice. I put a plate in before I go to work and before his lights go on and when I get home it's spread all over the tank from him walking all through it! We're going to try taking everything else out of his tank and boredom might divert his attention to the plate. Thanks again for your advice!

Bushman - thanks for your PM, I've sent you a message.
BTW, he does have a lovely lady-friend. Sadly, she is just another speedbump in his effort to keep on walking. He has no interest in her at all. She was our last hope last year and we were hoping for big things this year but so far no good.