grooved fang myth

[baxtor]

I saw a snake show recently at a small agricultural show and was surprised to be told by the presenter that our elapids have grooved fangs and as a result quite a bit of venom is prevented from entering the body of a victim by the clothing they may be wearing.. The business responsible was quite a well known and well established concern.
I believe this to be a myth and I thought it had been proven to be so. I have found evidence that some of the teeth of our elapids are in fact weekly grooved at the rear but this has nothing to do with the venom delivery system.
Any thoughts from others on this?

 

[saximus]

I don't know about the grooves thing but I thought our snakes just had quite small fangs in general which is why clothing may stop them penetrating the skin

 

[Bushman]

...I have found evidence that some of the teeth of our elapids are in fact weekly grooved at the rear but this has nothing to do with the venom delivery system...

What evidence did you find Baxtor?

 

[Wrightpython]

As far as im aware our elapids have small hollow fixed fangs and most bites dont envenomate because the snake doesnt want to inject venom. There are more dry bites on humans than envenomations. there venom is a last resort sort of defence obviously depending on species and situation. a friend got hit by his inland tai while changing water and lucky enough it was also a dry bite.

 

[waruikazi]

No myth. Some have grooved fangs and some have tubular. Grooved fangs are what hollow fangs evolved from. Hollow fangs didn't just appear on snakes one day, they started as longer teeth that venom could flow down. Over time a groove evolved to make the deliver more effective and over time again the grooves closed over and evolved into the hollow fangs to be more effective again. Both still exist.

 

[baxtor]

What evidence did you find Baxtor?

It was a short piece by brian bush.
On snake fangs

 

[Elapidae1]

Does Brian state that it doesn't have anything to do with delivery?

Sorry didn't notice the link

 

[baxtor]

No myth. Some have grooved fangs and some have tubular. Grooved fangs are what hollow fangs evolved from. Hollow fangs didn't just appear on snakes one day, they started as longer teeth that venom could flow down. Over time a groove evolved to make the deliver more effective and over time again the grooves closed over and evolved into the hollow fangs to be more effective again. Both still exist.

As far as australian snakes of TODAY it is a myth. The presentation referred to was not about how fangs evolved into what we have today. The front fanged snakes, as far as I can see all have hollow fang, the grooved fangs belonging to the rear fanged species.

 

[Venomous1111]

On snake fangs

 

[Monitor_Keeper]

Guy at the reptile park (mic ) said only 15% of venomous snake bites need anti venom

 

[baxtor]

Does Brian state that it doesn't have anything to do with delivery?

yes he does.
"Remember though! In the fangs of all front-fanged snakes there is the non-functional, enamel-sealed, anterior seam. It is an irrelevant groove."

 

[lynchette85]

Slightly off topic here but speaking of antivenin.. Our local hospital once administered 33 vials of antivenin to a single patient after an elapid (can't remember which) bite! 33! The hospital had to source extra vials from local veterinary clinics, and the guy survived

 

[aussie.snakes]

As far as im aware our elapids have small hollow fixed fangs and most bites dont envenomate because the snake doesnt want to inject venom. There are more dry bites on humans than envenomations. there venom is a last resort sort of defence obviously depending on species and situation. a friend got hit by his inland tai while changing water and lucky enough it was also a dry bite.

That is what I thought about dry bites however what I was reading the other day suggested otherwise. Supposedly the movement of fang shealth has 10 times more effect on the volume of venom injected than neural control and muscle contraction. The article was basically suggesting that dry bites were just poorly coordinated bites. It would be interesting to find out if more research has been done into this.

 

[waruikazi]

As far as australian snakes of TODAY it is a myth. The presentation referred to was not about how fangs evolved into what we have today. The front fanged snakes, as far as I can see all have hollow fang, the grooved fangs belonging to the rear fanged species.

My mistake, i need to work on my reading comprehensions skills.

The occurrence of grooved maxilliary teeth in prototeroglyphs has long been known, but is frequently overlooked in phylogentic analysis of the (elapid) group. However the fact that the fang is formed by the folding over and contact of the two leading edges of a groove similar to that in the maxilliary teeth just behind it suggests that the fang itself may have once been a grooved tooth unconnected to a venom gland.

That passage and the pictures had me thinking there were some that were grooved and some that were hollow. My mistake.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

I am no academic but I also believe that many dry bites are just a case of good fortune rather than a conscious thought out decision by the snake.
The fact is that if one totally surprises an elapid and immediately picks it up, it will often not bite, it usually takes a good few seconds for it to work out what just happened to it.
This is why it is easy to remove elapids of the road with your bare hands but give the elapid time to think about what has just happened and then, look out. If however you totally surprise an elapid and simultaneously cause a strike by say pinning or walking on it, its first reaction bite ( if it is immediate ) can sometimes be dry but one should never simply assume this. Many snakes second or even third bite delivers more venom than the first. You aren’t likely to know however what the snake was doing just prior to you encountering it, perhaps it has already chewed on something and is low on venom or maybe it has already been startled and more than ready for business.