Dragon ID

Discussion in 'Reptile and Amphibian Identification' started by Megsie, Dec 17, 2017.

  1. Megsie

    Megsie New Member

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    hi guys! Found this little dude on my parents property- will let him go of course. Anyone know what he is? Was think maybe an eastern water dragon baby? He’s about 9 inches long including his tail.
    Thanks!


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  2. Bl69aze

    Bl69aze Very Well-Known Member

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    Location?
     
  3. Megsie

    Megsie New Member

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    Should have posted the property is in central Qld near water and bush :) I thought he was a beardie at first glance too and then I looked closer
    --- Automatic Post Merged, Dec 17, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 17, 2017 ---
    Here’s his side

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  4. Bl69aze

    Bl69aze Very Well-Known Member

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    I’m gonna say it’s not a water dragon because it’s eye are sunken, where with water dragons they have a noticeable “bulge”
     
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  5. Megsie

    Megsie New Member

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    Also he was living in near a pile of red bricks which could be why he looks reddish?
     
  6. Scutellatus

    Scutellatus Well-Known Member

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    It's definitely not a Water Dragon. Water Dragons are more laterally compressed and have a prominent dorsal ridge. I am thinking it may be a Tommy Roundhead. Someone like @longirostris would be our best bet for a definite id.
     
  7. Megsie

    Megsie New Member

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    Think you’re right- have had him on my leg and his colours have changed a bit I can see 2 striped lines now. Wonder how old he is? Better let him go soon, he’s so cute.
     
  8. dragonlover1

    dragonlover1 Subscriber Subscriber

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    looks like a member of the Ctenophorus (sand dragon) family,going by location I'd guess maybe a Pictus (Painted dragon),definitely not an Isolepsis (military dragon)
     
  9. Scutellatus

    Scutellatus Well-Known Member

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    When you say Central Queensland, what is the nearest major town? It will help to narrow down the possibilities.
     
  10. Megsie

    Megsie New Member

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    The property is in Nagaoorin (Boyne valley) :)
    --- Automatic Post Merged, Dec 17, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 17, 2017 ---
    Here’s after his colours changed a bit

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    --- Automatic Post Merged, Dec 17, 2017 ---
    Nagoorins closest town is Gladstone
     
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  11. Wally

    Wally Subscriber Subscriber Power Seller

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    Tommy Roundhead Diporiphora australis
     
  12. longirostris

    longirostris Active Member

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    He is a she and everyone who said Tommy Roundhead or Diporiphora australis give yourselves a pat on the back. May as well give your self a chocolate too. Have a happy christmas everybody look forward to a great year next year

    Mark Hawker
     
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  13. Megsie

    Megsie New Member

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    He is a she? Cool! How do you know?
     
  14. Imported_tuatara

    Imported_tuatara Well-Known Member

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    they have sexual dimorphism, like almost all agamids.
     
  15. Bl69aze

    Bl69aze Very Well-Known Member

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    Can I ask how you can tell it’s a tommy round head and not a two lined dragon? They look pretty similar to me ;o
     
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  16. Scutellatus

    Scutellatus Well-Known Member

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    @Bl69aze
    Head shape firstly, the Two-Lined Dragon has a slightly pontier nose. Secondly the patterning of the blotches match up with Tommy-Roundhead. Thirdly the robust body shape is not consistent with a Two-Lined Dragon which has a longer less robust body. Lastly the location, Two-Lined Dragons are from the northern most parts of Queensland and the Northern Territory.
     
  17. longirostris

    longirostris Active Member

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    Tommy roundhead males have very obvious bulges on either side of the base of their tail that clearly indicate hemipenes. The females have very slender tails by comparison. When you look at a male and female of this species side by side the difference is very noticeable. Unfortunately I don't have a picture of a male right now but I have several of these in my collection so I will get a picture of a male and female together so you can all see the difference. Give me a day or 3 to post it up please.

    Just as a matter of interest I think I have actually commented on this forum in the past that there are several species of Diporiphora and funnily enough most of the Tympanocryptis group also that have very obvious hemipenes visible as large bulges or certainly thicker tail bases then their female counterparts. In fact examination of the base of the tail in a large number of dragon species can usually determine or help to determine sex.
    --- Automatic Post Merged, Dec 18, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 17, 2017 ---
    Tommy roundheads ARE actually Two Lined Dragons, they are also known by the common name Eastern Two Lined Dragon. There are several species of Two Lined Dragons within the Diporiphora complex. The species I think you are referring to is the Northern Two Lined Dragon, Diporiphora bilineata, these are almost identical to Tommies and quite frankly are extremely difficult to actually pick the difference. The major determinant is geographic location of the specimen, anything from SE Qld all the way up to just north of Townsville is considered a Tommy and the Northern Two lined is basically found right across the top end of the country. There is a lot of discussion going on at the present time about the status of the two lined dragons including bilineata and australis. I think Scutellatus has pretty much nailed the major differences being head shape, although in many examples of australis the round head from where it gets its name is not necessarily always obvious, in fact as I have said, sometimes it is not possible to pick between the two species on this determinant alone. Robust size can also be a determining factor but again not always. I have a very robust male right now and a very skinny one as well. They are like chalk and cheese, yet they are both australis. Some people try to use colour as a determinant but I have seen colour variation in both species that makes this method of identification largely unreliable. The fact that you were able to tell us where you found it is the key to identifying this specimen. I think I probably would have picked it anyway as a Tommy without the knowledge of where it came from but being honest, without the location I would not have been completely sure. I would have hedged my bets and said either australis or bilineata
     
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  18. Mitella

    Mitella Active Member

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    Hi all, the difference between Diporiphora australis and bilineata are simple. The latter lacks a gular fold (fold under the neck) whereas australis has this fold.
     
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  19. longirostris

    longirostris Active Member

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    IMG_0415.jpg IMG_0420.jpg IMG_0422.jpg IMG_0424.jpg

    Here you go folks, as promised pics showing differences in male and female Tommy roundheads. Sorry they took a little longer than expected, I have had to wait for my son to spend the time with me to help me with transferring the pics from the iphone to the computer and then help me get them into this forum. I am a genuine dinosaur when it comes to putting pictures onto computers and pretty much everything else for that matter.

    Anyway pic number 1 from left to right shows a male with the very pronounced tail bulges I mentioned in my earlier post and next to him one of his gravid females. I could make a joke about being well hung or something along those lines but I will leave that alone. As you can see the bulges are very noticeable. This male is quite skinny not emaciated but definitely skinny. It is quite healthy and does actually eat quite a bit, this guy is just a lean example of this species. The body size also accentuates the hemipene bulges as well.

    Pic number 2 is the same male and female but a closer view.

    Pic number 3 clearly shows the extremes in body size I spoke about in my earlier post. Both the animals in this pic are males. The skinny one is just under a year old whilst the more robust individual is several years old. This is typical in this species as well. They tend to suffer middle age spread like we do and then emaciate as they move through old age. The older male could almost be mistaken for a gravid female just for its size and the much less visible tail bulges compared to the skinny one.

    Pic number 4 is the older male with a gravid female. I took this pic to show that there is still a marked difference at the tail base between this chunkier male and a female. Although nowhere near as obvious as the skinny male, the tail bulge is still quite apparent, readily and credibly identifying this individual as a male.

    Hope this helps all those who asked how to determine sex in this species. As I said in an earlier post this visual method of examining tail base thickness works really well in several of the Diporiphora species and most of the Tympanocryptis species as well. It is also useful in many other genera and species within those genera although nowhere near as reliable. In these species I will very often use a combination of other determinants as well such as head size, general body size, colour variation and obviously behaviour towards other cage mates to help determine sex in some of the not so obvious species.

    I hope you are all having a great christmas. I got a signed copy of Jimmy Barnes' new book so I'm happy

    Mark Hawker
    --- Automatic Post Merged, Dec 25, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 25, 2017 ---
    You are indeed quite correct and I must admit I totally forgot about this particular distinguishing feature. I don't know why perhaps I was too focussed on the sex determination, but thank you for pointing it out. It is most definitely the best way to ID the differences between the 2 species. In fact if not for the gular fold they would be impossible to tell apart but I guess that makes them seperate species

    Mark Hawker
     
  20. Bluetongue1

    Bluetongue1 APS Veteran APS Veteran

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    Thought I had posted this but I noticed today that it was not here. It wouldn't be the first time I have forgotten to hit the 'post reply' button before closing the page.
    Just as an aside, the lizard in question looks like it might be to be gravid to me.
    There is also the presence of gular, scapula and post auricular folds in australis vs absence in bilineata. One ideally needs to be able to handle the animal to accurately assess some of these – been caught out before attempting to do so from a not so brilliant photo.

    Hi Mark. Great to be able to read your contributions again.
    With all due respect, in terms of the common names Bl69aze used he simply followed the major field guide texts produced over the last couple of decades (and AROD), which refer to the genus Diporiphora as “Two-lined Dragons” and give the sole common name of “Two-lined Dragon” to D. bilineata and the sole common name of “Tommy Round Head” to D. australis. No doubt as a result of the volatility of Australian herpetological taxonomy it is not surprising that such authors have adopted a conservative and consistent approach in the use of common names. It helps to provides some measure stability and continuity but the cost of making choices is that sections of the community have the names they have been used to changed.0

    Regards,
    Mike L
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2017
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