scarfing macs

[raginreptile@iprimus]

Everyone is all about giving their snakes a natural home how about a natural diet as well!!!!!!!!!!!
I've stated my opinion it is not good i don't need studies on reptiles there is enough studies on lots of other animals including humans to prove my case.
Nothing against the people that practice this just don't like the idea is all.

 

[slacker]

Everyone is all about giving their snakes a natural home how about a natural diet as well!!!!!!!!!!!
I've stated my opinion it is not good i don't need studies on reptiles there is enough studies on lots of other animals including humans to prove my case.
Nothing against the people that practice this just don't like the idea is all.

Studies on other animals is hardly a good comparison. We're not talking about making them obese, we're talking about them growing quicker. When they're of adult size, of course you're going to slow down to prevent obesity.

 

[flinders]

Buy the looks of it there are alot of people that don't seem to have a problem with over feeding.These will be the people wondering why their snakes start having problems in years to come.Fatty liver disease just to name one.

 

[Khagan]

Everyone is all about giving their snakes a natural home how about a natural diet as well!!!!!!!!!!!
I've stated my opinion it is not good i don't need studies on reptiles there is enough studies on lots of other animals including humans to prove my case.
Nothing against the people that practice this just don't like the idea is all.

Plastic tubs/wooden boxes with newspaper and cardboard/plastic hides is a natural home?

No matter how much you feed it isn't going to be 'natural' anyway.. A snake doesn't find something exactly every certain ammount of days, they could go months without finding a feed do you suggest then us to each week roll a dice to decide whether it will find food so the feeding habbits are more natural?

 

[Stewydead]

overfeeding inactive pythons in captivity will can cause heart disease, tumors, lower fertility, metabolic problems and musculoskeletal problems.

seriously why would you want to stuff your pythons face when it is not necessary, i wouldnt think maybe an odd quick feed here and there but to want to push it over a long period of time i cant see why?

IMO

 

[slacker]

overfeeding inactive pythons in captivity will can cause heart disease, tumors, lower fertility, metabolic problems and musculoskeletal problems.

seriously why would you want to stuff your pythons face when it is not necessary, i wouldnt think maybe an odd quick feed here and there but to want to push it over a long period of time i cant see why?

IMO

I'm not trying to offend anyone, nor am I trying to be difficult, but what is that information founded on, Stewydead?

I could see those things being problems in obese snakes, yes, but growing, juvenile ones? I would really like to see the studies that back this up.

 

[raginreptile@iprimus]

Plastic tubs/wooden boxes with newspaper and cardboard/plastic hides is a natural home?

No matter how much you feed it isn't going to be 'natural' anyway.. A snake doesn't find something exactly every certain ammount of days, they could go months without finding a feed do you suggest then us to each week roll a dice to decide whether it will find food so the feeding habbits are more natural?

Where in my post did i suggest anything other than natural A roll of a dice if thats the way you interpreted my post than i think you need your eyes checked. All i'm saying is a couple of weeks between feeds. You want em bigger give a bigger meal every couple.
Go skaarf yourself for a couple of years and come back to me and tell me if your healthy.

 

[Stewydead]

"whats wrong with my snake" , and previous debates with breeders, but purely my common sense.

If the enviroment your python lives in requires a high food content to keep up with their metabolism then go for it, if not then i dont see the point.

i would rather a healthy then heavy snake any day.

but like raginreptiles said go super size your snake and will see how it is.

 

[slacker]

You're apparently still not getting what I'm saying.

You seem to be of the belief that this will result in an obese snake. It won't. The idea is to feed the young python much and regularly to increase growth rate. This will not result in an obese snake, unless you continue to powerfeed the snake beyond its adult size.

You cannot compare humans to reptiles. We humans will not grow quicker if we're fed more than necessary, we will grow obese. Juvenile snakes will not.

How you can say this is common sense, I don't understand. Common sense if reptiles were humans, perhaps, but they are not.

I might add that I don't powerfeed my animals. All of my aspidites would eat daily if they were given the opportunity, but I feed roughly every ten days. I have no real position on powerfeeding, because I have not seen any studies which indicate adverse affects or otherwise. I would still be interested in seeing any real studies which supports the claim that powerfeeding young snakes has any adverse affects.

 

[Stewydead]

i would be more incline to start of slow then pick up the pace after the first year.

IMO, if the enviroment is incorrect the snake will come obese or have health complications.

common sense is to look after your herps as best we can and try too alter them just for pleasure(either to have a big snake or too get them to breed).

if your going to have a power feed session you have to realize you cant just stop and start feeding them fortnighty again you have to work them back down slowly - thats common sense aswell

IMO

 

[slacker]

That's fair enough, Stewydead, I think I can agree with you there

 

[hazzard]

Yes studies are being carried out at the University of Western Sydney. I am one of the principle investigators in the research.

The project in basic terms is this. For an accurate statistical conclusion you need a minimum of 6 individual animals per treatment group.

We have chosen childrens pythons as they are commonly kept in captivity.

The treatments are as follows;
40 childrens pythons

Before people jump up and down the experiments have been approved and designed in guidance with independent animal ethics committees that contain veterinary representation.

High intake :- Feeding up to 30% of body weight (max) or until refusal whichever comes first, every 7 days. Divided into 2 groups containing males and females.

Low intake:- Feeding 10% of bodyweight every 7 days. Again to groups males and females. Chosen as this is suggested in the literature as the approximate wild feeding rates averaged out over a year.

We all know a reptiles diet is feast or famine, but averaged over a year this is the approximate rate.

Body morphometrics and various parameters are being assessed.

SVL, head width, weight, shed cycles, as well as CT scanning for fat deposits (subject to ethics approval) and ultrasound.

The project is the first of it's kind with a valid sample size as so conclusions can be drawn about the effects of feeding rates on pythons. Initially the project is for 3 years and hopes to build a model that may be a useful guide for keeping captive pythons. It will also look at the reproductive success, clutch size, egg weights and measurements, clutching age etc based on the dietary regimes.

*Important to note:- The pythons will not be maintained on the high feeding treatment rate for the entire 3 year duration. Once maturity is reached the rate will be adjusted at a yet to be determined point and will be based upon preliminary results.

The trial has been going for approximately 12 months and is producing interesting results (not currently available).

For Example:- The majority of individuals on high feeding treatments are beggining to self regulate there intake and refusal is now down around the 20% mark of bodyweight / week. With the valid sample size this indicates that they may have the ability to determine when "enough is enough" . The size differences in animals is remarkable and this age. Just a tid bit for you!

This is just 1 of the interesting projects being undertaken by animal science staff and students at the new university teaching and research facility at western sydney.

We aim to do beneficial industry/hobby level science that can help develop the hobby with some scientific principles!

Cheers

 

[slacker]

Fantastic, hazzard

I very much look forward to seeing the results of these studies.

 

[Stewydead]

cool its nice to know that the studies are underway and in australia.

and i hope i havent plssed you too much off aspidite.

 

[slacker]

cool its nice to know that the studies are underway and in australia.

and i hope i havent plssed you too much off aspidite.

Not at all

I apologise if I came off as abrupt/rude, it wasn't my intent.

 

[Col J]

Good work, Hazzard. I knew there was some research of this type being conducted, but didn't know that it was this far along.

Question: If there were some findings which would greatly affect captive pythons under certain feeding regimes, would these findings be released before the end of the research period?

Col J.

 

[hazzard]

We aim to publish results in peer reviewed scientific journals along the way. We are nearing completion of 12 months work and we have begun crunching data etc. Unfortunately as anyone in research will tell you that the peer review process can take a while to occur. Reviewers are often given several months to make recommendations and then thier is editing acceptance and then several months later it appears in print.

Once accepted for publication we will endeavour to summarise the results as so they are available to the industry possibly through vectors such as reptiles australia!

Hope that helps!

 

[Col J]

Thanks Hazzard. Yeah, I know how these things can drag on. Can't wait to see if my own methods are far off the mark.

Col J.

 

[bigguy]

I always have a laugh when people who have never seen or studied snakes or any reptiles in the wild start stating about a natual diet. Who are they to say what is a natual diet. Snakes in particular are opportunistic feeders and will eat as much as they can whenever they find it. I could never imagine a snake eating one rodent and passing on another for 2 weeks. They will literally stuff themselves EVERY chance they get.

There are many areas in Australia where pythons live in areas of high food supply. The bat caves are good examples with both Mac's and Childreni taking full advantage all year round,every year. Water Pythons at Fogg dam are another good example. All year supply of rodents. Studies have been done here for years and it has shown that Waters grow so fast in the wild that they breed by 18 months old. And they are very healthy with no signs of the deseases that we are told they will get. Funny about that..

There is nothing un- natual with a reptile power feeding and growing fast. Their bodies allow it natually without the assist of any drugs. A famous USA reptile keeper once said to me there is no such thing as power feeding. It is in fact just feeding. He stated most people normally starved their animals by trying to guess what a healthy diet should be, such as every 1 to 2 weeks. No wonder most Australians are so far behind the American reptile breeding sucsesses.

To those who try to scare people with the stories of unhealthy snakes due to power feeding, they do not know what they are talking about. I have been using this system for 20 years and most who know me realise I breed more reptiles then just about anyone in this country. I also have some of the oldest snakes in captivity. Many of my females have breed up to 15 years in a row. I also have hundreds of reptiles all raised the same way and the funny thing is I never see these problems that all these backyard experts warn us about.

A few rules though should be followed. Allways keep the growing reptile very warm to keep the metabolism on high for fast growth mode. If done correctly you will never have a fat juvenile, they just use ALL the food for GROWTH. Back the food off as they reach maturity. Once they reach adult size they will become obese. Try to never use adult obese rodents as these can carry heaps of fat which can injure livers.

For those who are knocking Shane's methods, his breeding sucsess speaks for itself . I know of no one in Sydney who even comes close to what he breeds, and if you ever have the privilige to see his animals they are some of the best looking, healthy snakes you will ever see. Whats that saying,oh yea now I remember. Tall poppy syndrome that some many Australians are famous for.

 

[hazzard]

Well said and i wholeheartedly agree with you which is the motivation for this study!