Stressing your reps - on purpose!?

[nicman72]

G'day All,

I was watching a zoo show the other day and they'd rigged up a setup whereby a predator (big cat I think) could actually walk through the enclosure of a 'prey' animal (can't remember what, just some small furries), within a branch of its own enclosure. As expected, the small furries were terrified and ran every time the cat strolled past, even though they were perfectly safe.

At this point the keeper made a very interesting comment which explained the reasoning behind their new setup - essentially, animals in the wild are subjected to natural stresses, and that's what the zoo was recreating.

So this begs the question, should we all occasionally stress our animals out on purpose? Has anyone ever heard of this husbandry method before, or better still, does anyone practice it now, and if so, how do you actually 'stress' them safely? Has there been any meaningful research done on this subject that can prove the benefits?

Up until now, the goal of our husbandry had been to remove ALL stress from our animals' lives; now that I've been thinking about it, the zoo-keeper had a very valid point. Perhaps our reptiles could actually benefit from a bit of 'controlled' stress?

I'd love to open this topic up for everyone's opinion. As far as I'm aware, there's no right or wrong answer, so if we could keep the discussion civil and hear what everyone's got to say, I reckon we'll get some interesting feedback!

So, any thoughts?

Nic

 

[James_Scott]

If the aim was to reintroduce the animals to the wild then I can see why you would do it, but if it is just to stress an animal for the sake of it then that is just cruel. Did the zoo plan on ever releasing any of the animals or even future generations back to the wild?

 

[xxMelissaxx]

There have been a few studies on how the excitement associated with stressful events alters behavior in beneficial ways. The effects are different than those that present after long-term stress. However, the main thing to keep in mind here is that reptiles are very different to mammals.

 

[snakeluvver]

Well what type if stress would you be talking about? And I agree Melissa, reptiles may react differently. And too much stress can possibly kill your reptile.

 

[giggle]

This is a very good discussion topic.

Most people stress their pets out as a common daily occurrence and they do so for various reasons. For example, a part of dog training is to 'socialise' your dog. This is a stressful event and requires taking your timid puppy into stressful situations such as crowds, around other animals and... gulp... children. These stressful events allow the dog to become accustomed to those stressful events... eventually they will handle stressful events in a much calmer manner.

In reptiles... we take them out of their home and handle them regularly, to acclimatise them to this stress. Each time we do, they become better at handling the stresses of being removed from their home by a predator! Snakes don't enjoy being handled, they just become used to the stressful event. Stress can at times also be enjoyable... taking your snake outside into an open sunny yard would be a stressful event for them... but they would still no doubt enjoy it.

I would say that in this zoo example... the predator is benefiting through the excitement (rather than 'stress') of seeing prey animals and the prey animals would in turn benefit from the stress... I would say on a number of levels. Raising your adrenaline can be very therapeutic, have you ever noticed? A brush with death can sometimes perk you up and make you feel a million dollars. Animals that are used to these stresses in the wild and have therefore evolved to adapt would get no such thing in captivity. Sometimes stresses are required to allow animals to function normally and without natural stresses and activity some animals will not breed successfully. However, depending on how smart the prey animal is they will eventually adapt to the routine of being put safely within a cage infront of a predator and most likely it wont bother them after long enough.

But occasional stress is natural and healthy. Its our constantly stressed life style that is unhealthy

 

[giggle]

I would also say the zoo were just trying to justify what appeared to be cruelty

Also... just wanted to ad... it isnt essential to stress our animals out any further than we currently do. Taking them outside for the odd adventure should be enough. As for our small furry critters... I always liked to throw a cat ball in with my rats. At first they would hate the noisy intruder and try to move it away. Eventually it became like a game... 'move the noisy intruder'. I really think people would benefit from allowing their feeder animals such stimulation, but everyone just seems to want to throw them in an empty tub with no stimulation only to be bred over and over. *shrugs* I wonder what biological effects this has on the rodents we are feeding... and no wonder snakes get fatty livers when we have sedentary rodents fed on rubbish with no stimulation

 

[nicman72]

Well what type if stress would you be talking about?

Don't know snakeluvver. That's why I've put the question out there.

Don't get me wrong, I'm neither for nor against it yet. But I'll play Devil's Advocate for a bit...

I can understand your sentiments that 'too much' stress may kill your rep, but what about 'just the right amount', if there is such a thing? What if a fright gets some 'juices' flowing (sorry, don't know enough anatomy to know if there's a reptile equivalent to adrenaline), that might be good for the animal once in a while? Just throwing the thought out there... I mean, it'd happen in the wild all the time, and the animals don't just keel over and die of fright...

James, I don't think the zoo in question was planning on releasing the animals in question, but I know they're really big on not 'taming' any of their animals. Also, by saying that mimicking nature is cruel, I think you've hit the nail on the head - nature is cruel! And in the wild, the little furries would've been eaten, unlike in the zoo.

Hey Melissa, do you remember the findings of those studies by any chance? I expect reptiles to react differently to mammals, but they're still subjected to stresses in the wild like any mammal, so does overcoming these stresses perhaps make for a healthier, more robust animal?

Again, just throwing thoughts out there! Thanks for the responses guys.

 

[nicman72]

Cheers for your input Giggle! Perhaps this acclimatisation to human-made stresses is what sets domesticated and wild animals apart?
Now that I think about it, our animals have led SUCH a boring life compared to a wild one! They've never had to flee for their lives, hunt like it's their last meal, or basically go without anything! What a cushy life - I wonder if we should be trying to stimulate them more?

 

[xxMelissaxx]

In reptiles... we take them out of their home and handle them regularly, to acclimatise them to this stress. Each time we do, they become better at handling the stresses of being removed from their home by a predator! Snakes don't enjoy being handled, they just become used to the stressful event. Stress can at times also be enjoyable... taking your snake outside into an open sunny yard would be a stressful event for them... but they would still no doubt enjoy it.

That is quite debatable. You compare a lot of what you're saying to dogs, but I think you need to do some investigation into reptile cognition - this is evident in other posts of yours too.

Also, you're totally missing the point. These exercises are not to acclimatise the animals to predators/stress, it is a study on the behavioural changes in response to stressors, and in particular, those that can be viewed as somewhat beneficial. Perhaps actually reading these studies would help.

I would also say the zoo were just trying to justify what appeared to be cruelty

"Just trying to justify?" It is approved, planned research - not an excuse, and they are hardly needing to "justify" their actions on a television show.

Nicman72 - I'll have a search around for the articles if you're interested, but mammalian cognition is a very different ball game so don't think it will be applicable to our reptiles at all. I'll PM you a couple of things to have a read of..

 

[Waterrat]

Nic, you should have paid more attention to detail. What were those "small furries" and what was the predator? Having know that, it may have answered your question. Let me guess; the furries were meerkats. They have a very special social structure and different individuals are changing guard to look out for predators. This behaviour is an intrinsic part of their life and if there are no predators, there is nothing to look out for and role of the guards becomes redundant and consequently may destabilize the whole population.

We may perceive their behaviour as stressful, to the meerkats it's a normal part of their life. It's matter of perception, which we humans usually get wrong because we are degenerated brats wearing pink glasses and soft gloves. We certainly shouldn't apply stress onto our reptiles, definitely not based on this story.

 

[xxMelissaxx]

Nic, you should have paid more attention to detail. What were those "small furries" and what was the predator? Having know that, it may have answered your question. Let me guess; the furries were meerkats. They have a very special social structure and different individuals are changing guard to look out for predators. This behaviour is an intrinsic part of their life and if there are no predators, there is nothing to look out for and role of the guards becomes redundant and consequently may destabilize the whole population.

We may perceive their behaviour as stressful, to the meerkats it's a normal part of their life. It's matter of perception, which we humans usually get wrong because we are degenerated brats wearing pink glasses and soft gloves. We certainly shouldn't apply stress onto our reptiles, definitely not based on this story.

^ Makes a lot of sense.

Perhaps this isn't one of those studies I was referring to above..

 

[nicman72]

Nic, you should have paid more attention to detail.

I know, I know! I'm kicking myself - perhaps someone else saw the show and can remember the animals? The show's called 'The Zoo' on 7Mate in the late arvo, about the Auckland and Wellington Zoos.

What you say makes a lot of sense w'rat. Within a structured society, the removal of an entire 'role' would undoubtedly have dire consequences. However, even unstructured, non-social reptiles are still subjected to natural amounts of stress on a daily basis, (the short- and long-term effects of which I am unaware). I'm just curious as to the effects of REMOVING these natural stresses, which is what I guess we all strive to do in our husbandry.

Also, is acclimatising a reptile to behave in a (more) predictable manner around humans necessarily a bad thing? Ie, removing the stress that it would naturally feel toward us? I haven't noticed any negative psychological impact from handling our lizards, but how would I know for sure?

This is starting to move into reptile psychology, of which I know nothing! Thanks for your responses guys; I knew there'd be a division of opinion - cheers for the polite debate.
Nic

 

[Waterrat]

However, even unstructured, non-social reptiles are still subjected to natural amounts of stress on a daily basis, (the short- and long-term effects of which I am unaware). I'm just curious as to the effects of REMOVING these natural stresses, which is what I guess we all strive to do in our husbandry.

This is the part that I am unsure if we are interpreting behaviour correctly.
Snakes are non-territorial predators with a very few things to worry about ..... problem No. 1; what did I say? Worries?

All they practically have to do is avoid predators and secure prey, which are both done instinctively. How stressful is instinctive behaviour compared to forced behaviour? I would think much less.

How long different types and levels of stress last?
One of my baby GTPs had his first meal in his life and made a mess of it. Grabbing a pinkie in the middle of the body, he ended up with gut, blood and what not all over his head and parts of his body ...but he ate the meal. I didn't want the mess to dry on him, so I gave him a bath and physically pealed off and washed off all the garbage with my fingers. The snake did his best to get free from my grip and away - HUGE STRESS!
I put him back in his tub and withing minutes he was on his perch resting. I thought hell, lets try to feed him again. I gently nudged his ribs with another pinkie and after few more nudges he grabbed it and ate it.
So, please explain.

 

[Tristan]

I put him back in his tub and withing minutes he was on his perch resting. I thought hell, lets try to feed him again. I gently nudged his ribs with another pinkie and after few more nudges he grabbed it and ate it.
So, please explain.

sounds like he will be an obese snake eating when he gets stressed, common issue with humans too, better keep an eye on that lol.

but regarding stress, i think short bouts of stress are bound to happen regardless, when i get my SWCP out of his enclosure hes constantly trying to flee once hes out he settles and his breathing calms down again.

so i think some stress is unavoidable and not all bad, but i do agree long term constant stress will be bad, ie no hides available etc.

on the weekend my dragon saw me holding my snake and i could see him keeping a weary eye on the snake so i'm sure that would have cause a little stress for him but again as soon as its gone hes fine doing what dragons do.

so everything in moderation then eh?

 

[ezekiel86]

This is a very good discussion topic

but damnnnnn so much reading hahahha lol

 

[-Peter]

This is the part that I am unsure if we are interpreting behaviour correctly.
Snakes are non-territorial predators with a very few things to worry about ..... problem No. 1; what did I say?

I heard of research that has show that some snakes species dont move out of a particular area. This could indicate that they have a range or territory.

 

[nicman72]

Waterrat said:

Snakes are non-territorial predators with a very few things to worry about ... All they practically have to do is avoid predators and secure prey, which are both done instinctively. How stressful is instinctive behaviour compared to forced behaviour? I would think much less.

I think I see what you're saying, but snakes/crocs/monitors do not become the dominant predator unless they make it through their early life, and most lizards/turtles are always lower down on the food ladder; I'm suggesting that all reps, at least as babies, must receive occasional bouts of serious stress (escaping from a predator, for example).
My question is whether these natural stresses are an integral part of a reptile's development - if they are, then my own animals are lacking an important part of their life.

Tristan said :

so i think some stress is unavoidable and not all bad, but i do agree long term constant stress will be bad, ie no hides available etc

I guess I should be a bit more specific. I'm only considering 'natural stress', ie the sort that might occur in the wild. Man-made stresses, including poor husbandry, are something (most) wild reptiles don't have to deal with during their lives, thank goodness!

Ps Sorry about all the reading Ezekiel Interesting opinions though, eh?

 

[Waterrat]

I heard of research that has show that some snakes species dont move out of a particular area. This could indicate that they have a range or territory.

Peter, "home range" and "territory" are two very different things that are not to be confused. Snakes are not territorial.

 

[xxMelissaxx]

My question is whether these natural stresses are an integral part of a reptile's development - if they are, then my own animals are lacking an important part of their life.

I guess I should be a bit more specific. I'm only considering 'natural stress', ie the sort that might occur in the wild. Man-made stresses, including poor husbandry, are something (most) wild reptiles don't have to deal with during their lives, thank goodness!

Hatchlings, juvies and even adult pythons to a certain extent are stressed when we disturb them (cleaning time, handling and all the rest). They aren't really missing anything, as they would likely encounter the same amount (if not higher) of disturbances under our care than they would in the wild.

 

[nicman72]

Hatchlings, juvies and even adult pythons to a certain extent are stressed when we disturb them (cleaning time, handling and all the rest). They aren't really missing anything, as they would likely encounter the same amount (if not higher) of disturbances under our care than they would in the wild.

But are we able to compare these 'man-made' stresses (ie hands coming in and picking them up, which they eventually become accustomed to) with the life-and death situations they'd face in the wild?
I agree they're still getting stressed to various degrees in our captivity, but I don't think this is 'natural' stress... can you see the difference I'm trying to make? I agree that it is a good thing to remove all 'man-made' stresses from our animals' lives, but what if they sort of 'need' a bit of natural stress now and then?