Are our state wildlife authorities relevant?

[solar 17]

Are our state wildlife authorities relevant?
l beginning to think they are a waste of time and "our" money. For one in QLD. THEY DUCK ALL THE MAJOR ISSUES and muck around on a lot of others only to pick on and pubilicize how they have busted some person with an ilegal carpet when in real life there is one in every second roof in SE QLD.
On another point there are probably 1000 road kills for eveyone taken from the wild.
On another point when was the last time you saw someone prosecuted for killing a snake with a shovel and yet the herper who has an unlicensed carpet that is giving it heat, food and shelter is thrown to the wolves and boy oh boy don't the authorities run to the papers with that story.
l am not advocating open slather on the wild population, because unless you live under a mushroom there are always going to be snakes/reptiles taken from the wild.
Personally l don't like wild caught reptiles having purchased a few, years back on licence (NT)as 90+% doen't eat and a lot stress sure some are ok.
l am beginning to think that if licences were relaxed the playing field would balance itself,
Take the Carpets years back they were most herpers bread butter now apart from the hypos and morphs few people own them "compared to 10-15 years ago"
No and l will say it you see a few nature police on the internet yelling "dob him in" for some guys imo minor offence for reptile keeping, no l am beginning to think after talking in the last few days to some long term highly experienced reptile keepers these authorities have outstayed their use by day......and this doesn't mean l welcome imports either for those that like to read between the lines, but l am a fan of user pays export, but thats another subject.
.......solar 17 (Baden)

 

[Wild~Touch]

I hear ya ... but if we don't tell them what we want (in the correct legal way)

It's a bit like a bawling kid...you've got to get the kid to quit the bawling and tell you what it's bawling about, then there's a good chance the complaint can be rectified

The trick here is who's gonna do it...we really need a lawyer with a keen interest in Australian Native Fauna, is there such a GOD out there.... I wish

Cheers
Sandee

 

[waruikazi]

I wonder if we expect too much of them, especially in regards to the keeping of wildlife. Do we really want them devoting time to who has what and what species are available in captivity or should we be supporting them out in the feild doing the thankless jobs like killing weeds, looking after nat parks (albeit poorly in some peoples opinion), burning off etc?

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I wonder if we expect too much of them, especially in regards to the keeping of wildlife. Do we really want them devoting time to who has what and what species are available in captivity or should we be supporting them out in the feild doing the thankless jobs like killing weeds, looking after nat parks (albeit poorly in some peoples opinion), burning off etc?

I just had an interesting discussion with Waterrat about topics related to this issue! Gordo, the thing that I would expect from any bureaucrat, and especially the wildlife departments across the country, is that they objectively examine their role in CONSERVATION of species and CONSERVATION AND REPAIR of habitat. The business (call it a hobby, a business or an industry) of reptile keeping in Australia has grown way faster than the mindsets of the wildlife bureaucrats in this country. The manner in which they STILL operate relates far more to circumstances that prevailed 20-30 years ago, and they are nowhere near up to speed with reptile keeper-conservation-habitat security debate in the 21st century.

I've made the point many times in the recent past that many of the men & women in our government departments have been there for literally decades, and they were resistant to legalising the keeping of reptiles when it became popular, and the "anti keeper" mindsets still prevail, especially in places like WA. Until we get some fresh thinking and approach the business of species & habitat conservation, little will change. Unfortunately I think it's going to be a generational thing, until the old guard leaves office, they will attempt to maintain the iron fist of over-control, and one of the ways they do this is with blatant propaganda - the "busts" they promote as evidence that they are the good guys and many reptile keepers are just badasses are absorbed at face value by many people, including members here. Without the publicity, many of these people would be without a job, or perhaps more gainfully employed elsewhere on true conservation activities.

The bureaucracy that manages (or attempts to manage) the vast and pointless amount of information keepers send them every year is not serving any true conservation purpose at all - maybe in years gone by when there were a few dozen keepers in each state, there was some point in it. But to try and oversee the tems of thousands of keepers in each state using the same processes as were used in the 1970s & 80s is just a nonsense.

Baden, a great thread!

Jamie

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Solar17 quote
(Personally l don't like wild caught reptiles having purchased a few, years back on licence (NT)as 90+% doen't eat and a lot stress sure some are ok).

I don't know what species your negative experience was with but you shouldn't buy wild caught snakes off anyone unless the reptiles have at least some captive feeding. If I had a 90 % feeding refusual out of the wild, I would give up.catching them.
The reality though for me ( BHPs excluded ) is I get close to 100 % feeding success rate out of the wild for pythons. Having said this, we are limited to a small number of species we can collect.

Jamie
It amazing how so many DEC officers interpret the intention of regulations so differently.

 

[Waterrat]

Indeed a very interesting topic. I do agree with Solar17's opinion on the "need" for regulating this hobby.

Little while ago I approached DERM with a list of question related to keeping / breeding hybrids, jags, etc., and their potential impact on wild populations should they ever end up there as well as issues of pure-line breeding and conservation breeding. The response I received was rather "thin" but it's good to see that something is happening in relation to national standardization of reptile keeping regulations. I just receives a permission from DERM to post this email:

Response: [FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]Please attribute to Dr Ashley Bunce, Director Wildlife, Department of Environment and Resource Management
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]
States and territory laws vary in regards to the deliberate breeding of hybrid native animals. In some states and territories it may be illegal to breed these animals, but not to possess them with appropriate licences, while in others, breeding hybrids is not prohibited in law.

At the national level there are discussions currently underway regarding this issue, looking at ways in which a consistent approach can be delivered in areas such as compliance and the need to protect native species should hybrids be introduced (by accident or otherwise) into the wild. The Department of Environment and Resource Management is involved in these discussions.

ENDS[/FONT]


​

In the meanwhile, I followed up this topic through private channels but being private conversations, I can't take the liberty of mentioning it here. I can only add - I wouldn't be investing in jags and hybrids at this point in time.

 

[Ramsayi]

Indeed a very interesting topic. I do agree with Solar17's opinion on the "need" for regulating this hobby.

Little while ago I approached DERM with a list of question related to keeping / breeding hybrids, jags, etc., and their potential impact on wild populations should they ever end up there as well as issues of pure-line breeding and conservation breeding. The response I received was rather "thin" but it's good to see that something is happening in relation to national standardization of reptile keeping regulations. I just receives a permission from DERM to post this email:

Response: Please attribute to Dr Ashley Bunce, Director Wildlife, Department of Environment and Resource Management

States and territory laws vary in regards to the deliberate breeding of hybrid native animals. In some states and territories it may be illegal to breed these animals, but not to possess them with appropriate licences, while in others, breeding hybrids is not prohibited in law.

At the national level there are discussions currently underway regarding this issue, looking at ways in which a consistent approach can be delivered in areas such as compliance and the need to protect native species should hybrids be introduced (by accident or otherwise) into the wild. The Department of Environment and Resource Management is involved in these discussions.

ENDS


​

In the meanwhile, I followed up this topic through private channels but being private conversations, I can't take the liberty of mentioning it here. I can only add - I wouldn't be investing in jags and hybrids at this point in time.

All that means nothing when there are two differing opinions on what even constitutes a hybrid.

 

[Waterrat]

All that means nothing when there are two differing opinions on what even constitutes a hybrid.

That shouldn't too hard to sort out, I would think. Which slot would albinos fall into is an interesting question.

 

[Ramsayi]

That shouldn't too hard to sort out, I would think. Which slot would albinos fall into is an interesting question.

Being that albinos (at least darwins) are neither jag nor hybrid and could be successfully argued that they are a naturally occurring mutation there should be no issue.Given that it shouldn't be too hard to sort out what constitutes a hybrid how would you describe one?

 

[Waterrat]

How I would describe one is irrelevant. The feds can describe a particular definition that will apply to the new policy (or whatever it will be). I don't think they will ask me or you for help.

 

[waruikazi]

All that means nothing when there are two differing opinions on what even constitutes a hybrid.

It means doubly nothing when the Dept. realises that pure non-locals species pose the same risk to wild populations.

 

[saximus]

How I would describe one is irrelevant. The feds can describe a particular definition that will apply to the new policy (or whatever it will be). I don't think they will ask me or you for help.

Isn't that sort of the point though? If they were smart, surely they'd request the input of the most knowledgeable people in the hobby/business/industry. I mean that didn't exactly work well with the NSW advisory group but that is an issue with the process not the concept.

I only have limited understanding as I'm relatively new to the hobby but I was under the impression that the major use for these departments was the help reduce WC numbers but if it's true that they are in fact doing nothing then I see no purposeful need for them. You don't need a licence for a cat or dog

 

[waruikazi]

I just had an interesting discussion with Waterrat about topics related to this issue! Gordo, the thing that I would expect from any bureaucrat, and especially the wildlife departments across the country, is that they objectively examine their role in CONSERVATION of species and CONSERVATION AND REPAIR of habitat. The business (call it a hobby, a business or an industry) of reptile keeping in Australia has grown way faster than the mindsets of the wildlife bureaucrats in this country. The manner in which they STILL operate relates far more to circumstances that prevailed 20-30 years ago, and they are nowhere near up to speed with reptile keeper-conservation-habitat security debate in the 21st century.

I've made the point many times in the recent past that many of the men & women in our government departments have been there for literally decades, and they were resistant to legalising the keeping of reptiles when it became popular, and the "anti keeper" mindsets still prevail, especially in places like WA. Until we get some fresh thinking and approach the business of species & habitat conservation, little will change. Unfortunately I think it's going to be a generational thing, until the old guard leaves office, they will attempt to maintain the iron fist of over-control, and one of the ways they do this is with blatant propaganda - the "busts" they promote as evidence that they are the good guys and many reptile keepers are just badasses are absorbed at face value by many people, including members here. Without the publicity, many of these people would be without a job, or perhaps more gainfully employed elsewhere on true conservation activities.

The bureaucracy that manages (or attempts to manage) the vast and pointless amount of information keepers send them every year is not serving any true conservation purpose at all - maybe in years gone by when there were a few dozen keepers in each state, there was some point in it. But to try and oversee the tems of thousands of keepers in each state using the same processes as were used in the 1970s & 80s is just a nonsense.

Baden, a great thread!

Jamie

That's pretty much what i meant just in more words lol. They really don't seem to care for the hobby and don't recognise the conservation value either (and for the most part i don't either). As hobbiests we (or more so you because you have fees to pay, NT mob don't) expect something in return. Which we don't get.

 

[Waterrat]

Different States and Territories have different set of issues to deal with. Last thing they need is an input from a disorganized and dysfunctional group of herp keepers.
I see it as a positive step forward and we can judge the outcome when it comes out. Mind you, it can take years.

 

[PythonLegs]

After thinking about what we were talking about when I was picking up my rats, Baden, I think the real problem with the current QLD authorities is their proritisation of focus. Spending hours poring over the paperwork for a collection that is obviously well looked after, clean, and owned by someone who knows what they're talking about is just an absolutely pointless show of egotistical beaurocratic muscle flexing. And then when it comes time for them to do something they're asked to do- investigating exotics, seizing neglected animals, etc., suddenly they're understaffed, underfunded, etc etc.
I doubt there's any reptile keepers with any notable experience who wouldn't agree that our state system in particular is hugely outdated and in drastic need of an overhaul.

 

[-Katana-]

Yes, PL, but I always come back to the realization things in QLD could be worse. We could have a system like W.A or Tassie has.
That by no means lets them off the hook in finding ways to improve their service though.

 

[Waterrat]

I agree. Our (Qld) system is the leader. The registration, etc., process is easy, inexpensive no nonsense with import / export permits, annual returns and such. That must be said.
There are still areas in need of improvement, such as sales of reptiles at expos, revision of the commercial / standard and restricted reptile categories and electronic submission of Movement Advices.
But overall, it's pretty good in the sunshine state. I just hope that the rest of the states and territories won't pull Qld backwards in whatever they decide to implement on the national level. That would be a shame.

 

[longqi]

NT actually has by far the best laws etc
Everything is extremely simple
If you live near Palmerston anything can be completed in a couple of hours
Only thing that slows anything down is getting permission from other states to import export

That is the system you should try to emulate
Much more in line with other pets rather than singling out reptiles for special biases

 

[Waterrat]

Only thing that slows anything down is getting permission from other states to import export

That is the system you should try to emulate
Much more in line with other pets rather than singling out reptiles for special biases

That actually intervenes a section of the constitution relating to "free interstate trade". We know it, they know it but for some reason "trading with wildlife" falls into a different category. If captive bred reptiles were declassified as "wildlife", it would clear the way. This breach of constitutional rights would amount to a very interesting challenge in the High Court, but who would pay for it?

 

[PythonLegs]

QLD's ok- in theory. In practice, actually getting the DERM to enforce or investigate is nigh on impossible. The level of arrogance exhibited by the department when dealing with us 'armchair experts' (thnks Joy) is unbelievable.I'm sure wayne and leanne have reams of experience there..