Attention Brain Stormers: Enclosure Idea Help

[Serpentess]

Hey guys and gals,

I've had a enclosure idea that is a little bit different. As we are planning to be 'holding back' a few carpets when the breeding thing comes along, I've thought up a design where the enclosure is, well, adaptable I guess you could call it.

See below for image attachment. This is a 6ftx6ftx2.5ft design, which consists of a bank of 9 x 2ftx2ftx2.5ft enclosures. The idea is that the inner walls are some how able to slide out. I have a few vague plans for how to do this, but I would also like any of your alternate ideas of how this could be done.

Okay, so you may be wondering what my reasoning was for this? I want the slide out walls so that as the 'hold-backs' grow we can slide out one wall for a 4ft enclosure and if we decide to keep them for the breeding project, we can slide out another wall for a 6ft enclosure. It may require more effort to make, but I think it'd be pretty handy as you can have say for example: a breeding project pair in the bottom two 6ft enclosures, have a larger yearling or young adult in the top 4ft enclosure and a bigger hatchling or yearling in the top 2ft enclosure. And when the yearling requires 4ft and the young adult requires 6ft, the bottom two can be moved on into 'permanent' adult enclosures, which would be well and truly organised by the time they would need to move out. Or of course, you could alternatively have the 9x2ft enclosures -or- 3x 4ft enclosures and 3x 2ft enclosures - or - 3x 6ft enclosures...

Okay, now the issues I have come across with this design are obvious to me so far:
1. Slide Out Walls: How exactly will the walls slide out.
2. Heating: What about heating, how would this be done most efficiently.
3. Doors: How can this be done to suit 3 x 2ft enclosures as well as 1 6ft enclosure.
4. Ventilation: Is 3 vents too much for a 6ft enclosure?
5... If you see any other issues that could arise feel free to add them, lol.

My solutions so far:
1. Slide Out Walls: The walls can 'slot' in between two lips of melamine/pine/whatever suits best. This idea sort of works like a sideways glass sliding track, with the top going higher than the bottom, but with wood.
OR: Routed out slots, top and bottom, melamine simply slides in. May not be desirable due to the inner chipboard style of melamine but it could all be done up with some sort of sealant to resist water and accidental chipping.
Any other ideas?

2. Heating: Heat cord can be routed out on the underside of the enclosures, possibly with a sheet of melamine, to cover it.
OR: Some sort of heat globe set up, which I can't see being really successful for a 6ft enclosure as there'd be 3 light fittings in it, lol. Possibly have each fitting wired up with it's own light/heat switch on the side of the enclosure, which I have seen done before.
OR: Maybe some heat tape set up on the back walls?
Haven't really gone too far with the ideas for this yet, so any ideas will be appreciated. Thing is, I don't want to really have 9 different things plugged in but I don't want to be heating enclosures that could possibly be empty at some point, so maybe have the heating done up in sets of 3? Left, Middle and Right? Not sure yet, brain stormers needed for this one! As I think this problem is the biggest down fall of the idea.

3. Doors: I originally wanted sliding glass doors, but I think I'd need like 9x 2ft glass cut outs, 3x 4ft glass cut outs and 3x 6ft glass cut outs for it to work (change the size of glass when you slide out a wall).
OR: 9 x swing out doors with a small frame and a glass panel. Some sort of latch for each door. Might get annoying when set to a 6ft enclosure, but also might be handy, as you can open just one door to change water.
Any alternate ideas?

4. Ventilation, I can't really see this being too much of a problem, but if you think it may mean that the 6ft enclosure would be harder to heat or whatever feel free to throw any ideas out.


I'd really like for this to work out, but as you can see there's a few issues in the design.

Thanks in advance for any ideas/opinions.

 

[mysteryman]

ok one idea i had was to have all the dividers hinge from the back like cupboard doors. when they weren't in use they would hinge towards the back wall covering the unwanted ventilation holes. a small padbolt lock (like a swinging gate) into the base timber would stop it hinging in the open or closed position.

with the glass, perhaps having 3 panels per row of enclosures would be quite a practical way of tackling this issue. you would still only have a 2 track sliding system but 2 panels would be on the same track. this would still give quite good access to all 3 smaller tanks as well as not having to have backup glass panels for when the dividers are not in use.

 

[longqi]

Not easy to properly seal routed melamine if you have something sliding back and forth over it
How about 2 pieces of quarter round as the guides??
Do the backing as one large mural
Then use glass as the dividers
2 central verticals would be full height with supports/guides in place to slide 6 horizontals into place
Will give the effect of all being together
Heating should be the same as all are carpets
Just run one circuit to either lights or pads with desk lamp type on/off switches so you can isolate each one

 

[Serpentess]

Mystery Man, that is an awesome idea. I never even thought about having the dividers hinged.

The three glass panels per track is also an awesome idea. Left panel on front track, middle panel on back track and right panel on front track. Might make cleaning on the 6ft style a bit hard though, as the left panel would meet the right panel and cover about 4ft + a couple inches, leaving about 2ft of open space to clean, but you could just slide open each section to work your way through it all I guess.

Longqi, That's true, I didn't think it'd be easy to seal the melamine. That's pretty decent idea with glass dividers, would probably look pretty cool, but how well would it hold the heat? Probably would hold it well I guess.

You've definitely given me some food for thought, great ideas for sure. Thanks!

 

[starr9]

Sounds like it will be amazing!!!
As for the glass doors ect have you talked to someone who works with glass & fits windows to homes?!? I know a few years ago their was a new idea around that allowed (say one big window that had smaller different bits of glass in it) to be opened up as 1 whole window or you could just open up the different sections some how!?! so the glass kinda had bits of wood seperating the different parts and their was some kinda magnet that helped lock them back in place as one (hope you get what im trying to say!) Im not sure how you could make this lockable but!!! Id chat to someone who fits glass they may have an idea for you!!!

Good luck!!!

 

[Serpentess]

Thanks Starr I'll definitely look into that.

I haven't had a talk to anyone yet who works with glass, etc. as it won't really be needed for while, so I'm in no real rush to get it made up. We should hopefully have hatchlings this season or next, but will be another year or two until they become yearlings, so I'm just wanting to get the design plan solid and sorted. Anyone who wants to go ahead and make one and try it all out before me, feel free, lol.

 

[Em1986]

With the 3 panel sliding glass door idea and the issue of cleaning when it is 6ft, couldn't you just take out one of the panels on the front track (eg the left) to make it easier to clean?
Heat cords may be the most economical way of heating but may look messy depending on how you set them up.
All in all i think this is a great idea and would save heaps on enclosures etc
Please keep us updated as you go along and good luck!

 

[Bluetongue1]

I was pondering this same problem last week. A few thoughts for your consideration…

Doors
With the sliding glass, each piece needs to be larger than the opening to provide suitable overlap for sealing the doors. The middle piece must overlap both dividers to seal one cage section from another. Care would be required in locking it to ensure the middle section is in exactly the right spot. It is more convenient to use larger pieces but when opening up a 4ft, cage the glass will cover some of the opening. The maximum opening is provided if all three sheets are the same size. Depending on the glass thickness and the tracks, you may well need to seal between the glass sheet to stop hatchling or small young pythons (like Stimmies) escaping. Don’t use the foam weather strip. Use the one that has a texture like a brush.

I came to the conclusion that glass panelled wooden doors on hinges would be more serviceable but would not look as good.

Dividers
Do not route melamine shelf as you are weakening it structurally in doing so, apart from anything else.

With glass sliding doors you have the track sitting aove the level of the bottom of the enclosure. Therefore, you cannot slide anything in vertically from the front. it has to go in on an angle. Alternatively, the back of each row could be made removeable - more trouble than its is worth I would say.

With glas panelled wooden doorws, to hold the dividers I would use a small aluminium channel [U-section] cut, bent and soldered into to shape of the internal dimensions of the cages – essentially a rectangle minus the front side. Use a single screw hole top, bottom and back to fix it in place. Then slide in the wooden divider. You can remove the runner track when coalescing adjacent cages or lave it in place. The groove in it would not have to be very deep – just a few mm. The width of the track and the width of the divider is really the critical part. They should be a very snug fit.

Heating
You require flexibility in the heating arrangements. Heat cord can give you that by using more or less as required or changing the wattage. Wood, especially particle board, is a good insulator and should never be placed on top of heat cord. Similarly, placing it underneath to heat the cage above is extremely inefficient use of the available heat.

So what can you put on top. In my opinion, a ceramic or slate tile is best. These conduct reasonably well, which means they will spread the heat evenly over their surface. They also have a high specific heat, which means it takes a lot of heat for them to warm up but once they get there, they don’t go cold quickly. So the body of a cold reptile will not cause them to drop significantly in temperature. There’s plenty of colours and finishes to choose from, they are easily cleaned, they look neat and slate can be used in naturalistic set ups.

To hold the heat cord in place, use a thin piece of particle board the same size as the tile. Rout or saw a series of channels up and down the board with a few crossways cuts near both ends. The channels should be just large enough to drop the heat cord into with a little room for movement. You can attach the tile with a few dollops of Blutack or use a thin strip of wood fascia tacked to each edge of the board and the tile simply drops inside this. Place the unit in the back corner of the intended hot end and feed the heat cord through a small hole drilled in the back, near the base. The temperature reached can be adjusted by threading more or less heat cord into the particle board base. The wood can be waterproofed with something like several coats of polyurethane if you desire.

For a larger cage, two (or three) tiles side by side or one in front of the other, can be used. You will probably find you get some transfer of heat from cages below to those above but while it is difficult to predict, I doubt that it will be significant.

Ventilation
This can only really be determined once every thing is up and running. Having said that, I would be tempted to tape a bit of plastic over the middle vent when I went to 6 ft.

A Query
How heavy will the combined weight of all the sheets of glass be if you go with sliding glass doors? Will that weight at the very front edge of the structure affect its stability?


Blue

 

[Serpentess]

With the 3 panel sliding glass door idea and the issue of cleaning when it is 6ft, couldn't you just take out one of the panels on the front track (eg the left) to make it easier to clean?
Heat cords may be the most economical way of heating but may look messy depending on how you set them up.
All in all i think this is a great idea and would save heaps on enclosures etc
Please keep us updated as you go along and good luck!

Hey Em, thanks for the ideas and support.
I also thought that the glass panels could be removed for the purpose of the 6ft cleaning, but as the glass has to be handled with a fair amount of care I thought this may not be the best solution to a quick and easy clean (being delicate takes time, lol). Unfortunately quick and easy is pretty important when you have a number of other enclosures to clean as well.

Thanks! I'll be sure to update and take pics when construction eventually begins.

I was pondering this same problem last week. A few thoughts for your consideration…

Doors
With the sliding glass, each piece needs to be larger than the opening to provide suitable overlap for sealing the doors. The middle piece must overlap both dividers to seal one cage section from another. Care would be required in locking it to ensure the middle section is in exactly the right spot. It is more convenient to use larger pieces but when opening up a 4ft, cage the glass will cover some of the opening. The maximum opening is provided if all three sheets are the same size. Depending on the glass thickness and the tracks, you may well need to seal between the glass sheet to stop hatchling or small young pythons (like Stimmies) escaping. Don’t use the foam weather strip. Use the one that has a texture like a brush.

I came to the conclusion that glass panelled wooden doors on hinges would be more serviceable but would not look as good.

Dividers
Do not route melamine shelf as you are weakening it structurally in doing so, apart from anything else.

With glass sliding doors you have the track sitting aove the level of the bottom of the enclosure. Therefore, you cannot slide anything in vertically from the front. it has to go in on an angle. Alternatively, the back of each row could be made removeable - more trouble than its is worth I would say.

With glas panelled wooden doorws, to hold the dividers I would use a small aluminium channel [U-section] cut, bent and soldered into to shape of the internal dimensions of the cages – essentially a rectangle minus the front side. Use a single screw hole top, bottom and back to fix it in place. Then slide in the wooden divider. You can remove the runner track when coalescing adjacent cages or lave it in place. The groove in it would not have to be very deep – just a few mm. The width of the track and the width of the divider is really the critical part. They should be a very snug fit.

Heating
You require flexibility in the heating arrangements. Heat cord can give you that by using more or less as required or changing the wattage. Wood, especially particle board, is a good insulator and should never be placed on top of heat cord. Similarly, placing it underneath to heat the cage above is extremely inefficient use of the available heat.

So what can you put on top. In my opinion, a ceramic or slate tile is best. These conduct reasonably well, which means they will spread the heat evenly over their surface. They also have a high specific heat, which means it takes a lot of heat for them to warm up but once they get there, they don’t go cold quickly. So the body of a cold reptile will not cause them to drop significantly in temperature. There’s plenty of colours and finishes to choose from, they are easily cleaned, they look neat and slate can be used in naturalistic set ups.

To hold the heat cord in place, use a thin piece of particle board the same size as the tile. Rout or saw a series of channels up and down the board with a few crossways cuts near both ends. The channels should be just large enough to drop the heat cord into with a little room for movement. You can attach the tile with a few dollops of Blutack or use a thin strip of wood fascia tacked to each edge of the board and the tile simply drops inside this. Place the unit in the back corner of the intended hot end and feed the heat cord through a small hole drilled in the back, near the base. The temperature reached can be adjusted by threading more or less heat cord into the particle board base. The wood can be waterproofed with something like several coats of polyurethane if you desire.

For a larger cage, two (or three) tiles side by side or one in front of the other, can be used. You will probably find you get some transfer of heat from cages below to those above but while it is difficult to predict, I doubt that it will be significant.

Ventilation
This can only really be determined once every thing is up and running. Having said that, I would be tempted to tape a bit of plastic over the middle vent when I went to 6 ft.

A Query
How heavy will the combined weight of all the sheets of glass be if you go with sliding glass doors? Will that weight at the very front edge of the structure affect its stability?


Blue

Wow, Blue, I'm impressed! You managed to cover a number of great points.

Your query also has me wondering. As it is a very possible outcome for it to be front heavy, I guess that I will be able to counteract that weight with a reasonably light ceramic tile (served as a basking spot) placed at the back of the individual 2ft enclosures.

In further response to the rest of your post: -
Doors: I also could see the same issue arising with the opening space of the glass panels. Apart from that though, I don't think I'd be keeping anything in the enclosures that weighs in at less than 150g, at that size there should hopefully be no worries about escapees, etc. Anything smaller will be kept in appropriately sized tubs (15L-52L) on the rack system that Snake_Whisperer had wonderfully made for us late last year/early this year. I also have decided that although it may not have the best appearance, that the hinged doors would be more practical.

A more aesthetically pleasing option I have wondered about was simple Perspex doors. With care, I'm fairly certain that the hinges and latches/locks can be attached directly onto the perspex. Problem is that perspex is generally more expensive and harder to come by than glass. I also believe that it scratches up fairly easy, which shouldn't be a problem with pythons. If someone were to decide to use the space with lizards/monitors however, the lower regions of the perspex would eventually become clouded with fine scratches.

Dividers: I also wasn't a fan of the routing idea for that very reason, but I just put it down as an alternate solution. Funny that you mention the glass track getting in the way as well, because that was the main reason why I came up with the 'slot in' design. I am very much a fan of the aluminium track/channel though, I can see that working well. I will definitely have a look into that.

Heating: I can see what you mean with the heat cord. Your idea of combining them with a tile would work well. Not only would it be convenient but also as the tiles hold heat well it would be efficient. I like the idea with the extra piece of particle board rather than routing into the shelves/levels themselves, as I can imagine that 6ft of routed shelving probably wouldn't be too good, lol.

Ventilation: I can see that covering the middle vent up from the outside would work wonderfully.

Thank you once again, Blue, you've raised some great ideas and solutions in all aspects of this design.

 

[Bluetongue1]

Hi Chantelle,

A few more bits and pieces for you...

Dividers
I have been working on an idea with the dividers. The bottom could slot into a piece aluminium channel. The top and back edge would push up against the little metal holders they use in wooden and laminate adjustable shelving. Two in each would do the trick. To hold it in place, use a tiny slide bolt in the middle of the top of the divider.

You could use the same arrangement with the bottom edge but my feelings are that the pad bolt might get interfered with and the holes for the shelf holders in the base of a cage are going to get muck in them when the divider is not in place.

Doors
Perspex is not that hard to come by. It has a paper like coating on the outside to protect it from scratches, which you peel off when ready to use it. You are supposed to use a particular saw to cut it as this leaves cleaner edges. I can’t remember what that would be easy enough to check on. It is flexible and so you would want a fairly thick piece to reduce the flexing and it would require two latches per door. You can drill it just like wood or plastic.

The gap between sheets of glass will vary according to the thickness of the glass and the type of tracks used. You may still want to the stick-on wether strip to reduce heat loss through convection (air movement through the gap).

Heating
The tile set up is effectively a home made heat mat. You can physically adjust how much cord is under the tile to adjust the temperature. A couple of mates use nothing else with their pythons and they don’t use thermostats either. That’s their choice but basically, set up that way, they cannot over heat. The worst that can happen is if they stop working. They can be put where you want by simply taping any exposed cord to the base of the cage with aluminium tape, which will spread the heat and sticks well to clean surfaces – unlike some adhesive tapes than can peel and get stuck to a snake. By placing in the back corner you don’t have any exposed. The hole required just needs to allow the end of the heat cord to fit through – probably 3 or 4 mm. No nasty plug holes to have to fill in. You can custom make larger sizes and shapes by cutting tiles and putting them together in the shape you want. Then cut your MDF base in one piece to that shape and away you go. And when you want to remove a heater, you have only a 3 or 4 mm hole left in the back wall which will probably be covered with substrate. If it worries you, temporarily plug it with a small round head screw or some Blutack.

If I have any more brainwaves I shall let you know. It was rather fortuitous that this thread came up when it did.

Blue

A few added calcs
I just did a little calculating based on 16 mm thick melamine for sliding glass doors. Divide the internal gap from one side to the other by three. Add 1” to that to give you the width of each glass sheet. There will be 1½” of overlap for each front sheet with the back sheet. The back sheet, when centrally positioned, will also go past each divider (assuming they are 16 mm again) by 3/16”, which is adequate. That means that when you open up a 4ft cage as fully as possible, you will have 1” of glass only sticking out at one side. Hardly an impedance.

I would work out some exact dimensions to the opening and from that determine the size and thickness of the glass sheets once in tracks and then calculate the total weight of glass. A cabinet maker may be able to assist in advising whether it is a practical option.

 

[Serpentess]

Hey Blue,

You certainly have come up with some awesome ideas and valid points.

Dividers: I think that's probably the best idea yet. I was recently wondering how well those little knobs would work for holding the dividers. Also, with the aluminum track/channel, I think that it could also be used on the roof to hold the divider in place.

Doors: Yeah, I thought perspex would be pretty good to use. Not only it would it look better than the framed glass alternative, but it is also a lot lighter so any worries about the structure being front heavy can be forgotten. I have worked with perspex a few years ago on a blue tongue enclosure but it didn't have the hinges or the latches attached to it directly, instead it had a frame that was about 2" in width.

If I go with the sliding glass, it probably would be a good idea to use some weather strip as you suggested. I can imagine it would aid in heating more efficiently throughout winter.

Heating: I think that the heated tiles are the way to go. Simple, efficient and tidy. Very good idea with the simple screw plug if it's not being used as well, but as you said, I don't think a 4mm hole is much to worry about. Another thought just occurred; the routed MDF pieces should be weighed down sufficiently enough by the tile so that it won't be necessary to screw it into the melamine base, because of this the mdf/tiles could all be moved to one side to create a larger heating spot if it was opened up to a 6ft.

Thanks for also going through the trouble to do some calculations in terms of the glass overlap. That makes using glass sliding doors seem like a very feasible option. If I went with this option I would probably look into getting 4mm glass as the combined weight would be a little lighter. We should be getting some 4mm glass cut for a 2ft enclosure in the near future, so I will be able to weigh up the glass and multiply that to get an approximate weight of the glass that would be required for this design.

 

[Bluetongue1]

Hi ya Chantelle.

My preference for the aluminium track to be on the floor was that I could see the little holes for the shelf supports getting gunk in them and being a pain to get clean. I do like the idea of having the track on the roof though. So you need to temporarily plug the holes when the divider is not being used.

There is putting a small screw into the hole as one option. You could also use one of the metal shelf supports with the half piece cut-off so it is level with the enclosure floor. Then use a strong magnet to pull it out when required. Lastly, you could probably buy an appropriate sized “screw hole plug” for melamine. The ones they use to hide where the screws go in with commercially produced melamine bookshelves etc.

We have not had any issues with pythons moving the heat tile around, but it has been positioned in the back corner. Again, you could probably use a few dollops of bluetack to get it to stay put where ever.

Would love to hear how it goes when and if you get to turn it into a reality. Good luck!

Blue.

 

[longqi]

Be careful using Perspex
Even Lexen goes cloudy after a while
Thats why it is rarely used for windows in houses

 

[wokka]

We put temporary dividers in some cages just using a piece of melomite about 2mm smaller than the space to be filled. We put silicon buttons on the top and bottom edge of the divider and then just knock it in to place where it jamms. To remove you just knock the top of the divider to release the pressure off the silicon buttons.

 

[Serpentess]

Hey Blue, thanks again. You've been absolutely awesome with all the ideas. I'll definitely keep this thread updated if it all starts to come together.


Longqi, thanks for the heads up on that. I have used perspex before on a bluey enclosure, it was pretty good to work with, but I don't think I'd use it for lizards again. If it clouds up too much I'm sure I'll just be able to replace it in a few years. Not sure how long it would really take for it to need replacing though as even the bluey enclosure (which was exposed to uv lighting and higher heats) didn't cloud up too bad after a couple of years. Most of the damage to the perspex came from the bluey doing the "I'm Spiderman!" attempt every now and then which resulted in claw/scratch marks.

Wokka, oh, that's awesome. Thanks for sharing that idea. Just wondering how you go about heating the enclosure(s) and what sort of doors do you use, anything special?

 

[maddog-1979]

when putting dividers in be careful of the gap between the divider itself and the glass sliding door. the glass in the back track is close enough but the front track glass creates a gap depending on the glass and track thickness up to about 1cm gap in places, not knowing how to fill this has stopped me from using removable dividers in sliding glass door vivs in the past and to go with hinged doors. be sure to post pics if you work it out tho

 

[wokka]

I use heatmats for heating andthey fit under the divider wall which has a 1-1.5mm gap because it is held up by the silicon "legs" so you can put the heatmat with half on either side of the cage. I use a ceramic tile on top of the heatmat to disipate the heat so there are no hotspots. It also acts as a heat bank.

 

[Serpentess]

Maddog, thanks for the info. I had wondered about any gaps that would occur between the glass and dividers. I will be sure to post pics and keep this updated on any advances in the design & construction.

Wokka, thank you for sharing. It sounds like it works well.