Baby bluetongues with sags in their backs? (Pics)

[Koula]

Hey all, I recently acquired two beautiful eastern blueys, and they are doing great, both eating well and quite active when the UVB light comes on.

But in the last 2 weeks, I've noticed one of the bluey's lower back section has a weird "sag" in it. I am a little concerned because I've seen some pretty gross photos of blueys with deformed backs floating around the internet.

Here are a couple of photos of the bluey with the sag:

I've looked around the herp forums and websites and so far I've been getting conflicting stories such as: "It's potential early-stages of calcium deficieny/MBD", or "Your bluey is constipated", or "It's caused by them trying to climb walls in an indoor enclosure" or "It's natural - they have that loose skin so they can flex themselves when climbing/moving through terrain".

So what's the go? Is it a clacium related issue? Should I double the amount of Repti-cal powder I mix into their food?

They get fed a good mixed diet of greens, fruit and veges, and a bit of jellymeat every 2nd day. I monitor them during feeding time, there have been no fights, and both blueys eat equal amounts.


PS: This is a photo of the other baby, who doesn't have the sag.

 

[Dicco]

It's UV or calcium, one or the two, I've seen it first hand, I'll speak to you about it.

 

[serpenttongue]

I've seen this in baby blueys, hatchling dragons, hatchling Lace Monitors and hatchling pythons. It is most often caused by them trying to climb walls. Reptiles hatch/are born with soft bones. The bones hardened as they expose themselves to sunlight and also as they start consuming foods that contain calcium for hardening their bones.

At such an early age their soft backbones can be very easily damaged if pressure is applied. The "pressure" i'm talking about is when they start climbing up the walls of their enclosures, they put a strain on the slight bend in their spine just before the pelvis area.

This often happens in young pythons when they scale the sides of their click clack container. When the reach the top they start to lean backwards, nosing the underside of the lid. Sometimes they lean so far back that their back gives way, and as the spine is still soft, it's damaged. I always keep my young pythons in containers with very limited height so they cant do much climbing until they are about 1 year old(and they have eaten many rodents with fully developed skeletons, for calcium). Then they are moved to cages with height.

If it happens with older animals then i would say its caused by a lack of calcium in their diet, but i've only ever seen it in newly hatched/born reptiles that havent had time to start consuming foods.

 

[Koula]

Hmm... is there a possibility then that this bluey is permanenly damaged for life?

 

[soulweaver]

how long after they were born did you notice the 'sacks' could be birth defect?

 

[Koula]

Born on the 4th December, acquired on the 15th of Dec. After 2 weeks of owning them I've noticed it.

 

[serpenttongue]

Hmm... is there a possibility then that this bluey is permanenly damaged for life?

No, the problem can be fixed. Firstly you must stop them doing any vertical climbing. Then start feeding them foods with calcium and keep them well fed. Access to sunlight will help greatly. With steady growth the problem will go away as the bones harden, and as the back muscles strengthen. You've a much better chance beating this if its caught in its early stages. One of my Lacey's had a severe case of this as a hatchling. It was caused by the Lacey always climbing the glass doors of his enclosure. I had to cover the doors with sheets of newspaper so it could never see out and then start giving it meals that really filled its gut, so it would become less active. The problem was fixed by the time it was 1 year old, and now its a perfect specimen!!

 

[Koula]

Sweet. I'll try the newspaper wallpaper thing. The UVB light I have is about 40cm away from the tank floor and I cant make it go any lower, so I'm gunna put some taller fake-logs/rocks in, and a thick block of wood with a slope cut into it so they can climb up it to get closer to the UVB.

Thanks for the advice guys, I'll keep youse updated.

 

[zulu]

re Baby

I had a young blotchy juv with the condition swiftrat and it was most noticeable when it tryed to climb the sides of the enclosure,it did correct itself in time.Ive also seen cunningham adults with what appeared to be severe cases.Yes Dr sepentongue is thinking well again,ive never really put any thought into this ailments cause etc but its obvious he has

 

[Koula]

Aye, just curious now, but how long would it take for my bluey to correct its back?

 

[steve6610]

hi all,
these 2 bluey's were bought from me, i have to agree with serpenttongue,
i still have 2 here that i'm keeping and they show no bent backs, i also know that they never
climb the walls of their tank, i also have a uv and heat light for them, i also have sand on the
bottom of their tank, i see them doing plenty of digging but no climbing, i have noticed it with
my 2003 and 2004 babys and they all turned out normal, my friend has a pair of my 2003 babys
and i see them all the time and they have turned out very normal,
i also see some of my adults that climb up the walls of their outdoor pit that have bent backs,
this includes some adult alpines i've just bought, but when they stop climbing and come back
down their backs are normal,
has anybody else seen this in their adults, mine are keep outdoors all year and can't be lacking
sun or calsium, and get 3 big feeds a week of dog food mixed with minced vegies and fruit,
i'm very interested in getting any feedback about this.

cheers,
steve.........
ps. swiftrat and i have spoken about this happening and are waiting to see what the outcome
is, the main thing is to make sure the bluey's are ok,

 

[reptililian]

Steve, you must be as distressed about this as Swiftrat is. But there seems to be some really good info coming through and hopefully for you, Swift and the bubs the situation will be remedied very shortly.

Goodluck Swiftrat, I know how much you care about your beasties.

Cheers, Lily

 

[zulu]

re Baby

I looked up diseases in lizards on the net and then bone diseases and they was on camels,kittens free ranging red squirrells sadji would have a field day.Try bletongue skinks .net steve they should have something on it,very good site mate,your adults should pick up over the summer with a good diet and stress from mating gone.Apparently its a similar thing with juvy GTPs whose tails can be easily damaged,ile have to be more careful with baby reptiles.

 

[steve6610]

Steve, you must be as distressed about this

hi lily,
not really as i've seen it before and know that it fixes itself
as they grow, i'm more worried that swiftrat gets the right answers
from people that know what they are talking about and to find out
how to prevent it for next years babys,
i do think that serpy has the right answer.........

cheers,
steve........

 

[jordo]

I got a litter of 5 alpine blotchies, now kept outdoors and half grown. One of which has a similar condition, the other 4 are "normal" i had never much thought of it but it makes sense, the "saggy" backed individual is by far the most adventureous and does a lot of climbing (the pit is surrounded by a rock wall), also his nails are the most worn down out of the 5 as a result of climbing.
Serpenttongues diagnosis definately explains my situation.

PS(swiftrat): My lizards back, although not as extreme a case as your easterns, has to some extend corrected itself, and will probably get better with age as Steve says:

know that it fixes itself
as they grow

 

[jordo]

I got a litter of 5 alpine blotchies, now kept outdoors and half grown. One of which has a similar condition, the other 4 are "normal" i had never much thought of it but it makes sense, the "saggy" backed individual is by far the most adventureous and does a lot of climbing (the pit is surrounded by a rock wall), also his nails are the most worn down out of the 5 as a result of climbing.
Serpenttongues diagnosis definately explains my situation.

PS(swiftrat): My lizards back, although not as extreme a case as your easterns, has to some extend corrected itself, and will probably get better with age as Steve says:

know that it fixes itself
as they grow

Good Luck!