Butterfly id
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Moreliaman
Very Well-Known Member
Looks like some sort of lycaenidae ..to be specific id say its one of the blues (polyommatinae), not sure wich one though
Moreliaman
Very Well-Known Member
lol...no idea mate, they all feed on different stuff, some feed on plants for a few weeks & then get taken in by ants & feed on ant larvae/pupa in the final stages... that one looks like its quite old as its a bit tatty & faded...looks like a male too.
You'd need to post a pic of it with wings open to get a positive id, try giving it some sunshine or a light so it opens its wings to bask & warm up.
You'd need to post a pic of it with wings open to get a positive id, try giving it some sunshine or a light so it opens its wings to bask & warm up.
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Moreliaman
Very Well-Known Member
Very difficult if its one that feeds on ant larve, if you know what it looks like with wings open i just found this site you could try...... http://www-staff.mcs.uts.edu.au/~don/larvae/lyca/lycaenidae.html
Nephrurus
Very Well-Known Member
theres an excellent butterfly ID book. Handbook of Australian Butterflies..... it's great, clear photos and plenty of info like larval foodplant. SHould be available on Andrew Isles online bookshop.
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ace#74
Well-Known Member
a butterfly
Moreliaman
Very Well-Known Member
About 3/4 of them do, i'd look for a site on butterflies of queensland to ID it, but its hard to ID it from the underside as some of them vary in pattern, you could go out & catch 10 of the same specie & all of them could have slightly different markings on the underwings.
S
scorps
Guest
a moth?
Miss_Croft
Active Member
Common grass blue (Zizina labradus) (male)
Moreliaman – My understanding of Lycaebudae is: they are taken in by ants – but normally eat vegetation (mistletoe) with exception of the ant blues. The experts have no idea what the ant blues eat – all they know is their caterpillars live their entire life in an ants nest.
When I was a kid I use to catch the lava and raise them to butterflies – I would search the bush for the ants, then place a piece of wood with holes to simulate a good home. Often I would get caterpillars or pupa. I raised the caterpillars on apple as a change of mistletoe plant may kill them (Side note – A good mistletoe substitute is apple).
You are right the adults will only lay eggs where ants live – Each butterfly species will work with a different type of ants – their caterpillars smell like that type of ant.
If you are seriously want to breed one of the butterflies that require ants then:
Find out what they eat (Often mistletoe) – in the case of mistletoe grow a host tree – in spring get some mistletoe berries – place seeds on a low hanging branch of your chosen tree (Mistletoe will often grow on introduced deciduous trees like plums). I am happy to talk a little about mistletoe.
Once you have the food source then source out the ants – I would do this by cutting a branch and attaching to the host tree. (Note you will have to feed the ants – most probably on agar, honey and sugar.) Each blue takes a different ant or even a different ant subspecies.
That said – I suggest the butterfly in the photo is one of the common grass blues (Zizina labradus) – see http://www.geocities.com/brisbane_blues/CommonGrassBlue.htm
As their name suggests – their caterpillars eat grass (Clover). I doubt they have interaction with ants as previously mentioned.
Side note: NEVER take any living or non-living object from a national park or nature reserve and many of the blues are now protected species. As such it is illegal to catch, breed or interfere with protected insects.
Moreliaman – My understanding of Lycaebudae is: they are taken in by ants – but normally eat vegetation (mistletoe) with exception of the ant blues. The experts have no idea what the ant blues eat – all they know is their caterpillars live their entire life in an ants nest.
When I was a kid I use to catch the lava and raise them to butterflies – I would search the bush for the ants, then place a piece of wood with holes to simulate a good home. Often I would get caterpillars or pupa. I raised the caterpillars on apple as a change of mistletoe plant may kill them (Side note – A good mistletoe substitute is apple).
You are right the adults will only lay eggs where ants live – Each butterfly species will work with a different type of ants – their caterpillars smell like that type of ant.
If you are seriously want to breed one of the butterflies that require ants then:
Find out what they eat (Often mistletoe) – in the case of mistletoe grow a host tree – in spring get some mistletoe berries – place seeds on a low hanging branch of your chosen tree (Mistletoe will often grow on introduced deciduous trees like plums). I am happy to talk a little about mistletoe.
Once you have the food source then source out the ants – I would do this by cutting a branch and attaching to the host tree. (Note you will have to feed the ants – most probably on agar, honey and sugar.) Each blue takes a different ant or even a different ant subspecies.
That said – I suggest the butterfly in the photo is one of the common grass blues (Zizina labradus) – see http://www.geocities.com/brisbane_blues/CommonGrassBlue.htm
As their name suggests – their caterpillars eat grass (Clover). I doubt they have interaction with ants as previously mentioned.
Side note: NEVER take any living or non-living object from a national park or nature reserve and many of the blues are now protected species. As such it is illegal to catch, breed or interfere with protected insects.
lil_ben
Active Member
lol @ scorps
Moreliaman
Very Well-Known Member
Very interesting Miss_Croft....sounds like you had a childhood similar to mine....fascinated by insects & constantly bringing stuff home..
(My mother’s constant thoughts every time I came home were...."god what’s he brought home this time?":lol: )....I’m sure you also know that lycaenidae is the second largest family of butterflies which contain around 6000 different species worldwide.
As for the Blues (polyommatinae) not all of them feed on the same particular species of plant & not all of them depend solely on 1 specie of ant, as you’ve already mentioned some don’t even need ants to complete their life cycle & some have been known to use 2-3 or more different species of ants.
The experts do have some idea what some of the ant blues eat.... some of them stay on the food plant & eat aphids, secreting a sugar solution (like aphids) and are protected by the ants in much the same way aphids are..... Some of them still produce the sugar secretions, but instead eat ant larvae (as observed by small cameras that have been placed inside ants nests) & not all of their caterpillars live their entire life in an ants nest.
I have heard of some them being able to produce pheromones that imitate the smell of the host ant species which helps the ants in finding them (although like you say.. more research is needed & is being done) I do know that like aphids some can produce a sweet solution that the ants find attractive & some can produce sounds or vibrations that could possibly communicate with the ants & in some cases the ants take this valuable food source that can also resemble their own pupae (some produce sounds & vibrations that mimic the ants larvae) back to the brood chamber in the nest where it is protected by the ants & much safer underground where it completes its life cycle....some will also over winter as pupae, like the large blue (Maculinea arion)
[SIZE=+0]Thanks for suggesting a possible ID on the butterfly, we were struggling here & I’m not too familiar with the Australian species, however I did google the name you gave & the info I got back claimed that this particular species is sometimes attended by ants[/SIZE]
http://www.jcu.edu.au/discovernature/butterfliescommon/JCUDEV_005824.html
This page gives a larger list of foodplants
http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~rbg/labradus_ds.htm
Good luck hornet....let us know how you get on
(My mother’s constant thoughts every time I came home were...."god what’s he brought home this time?":lol: )....I’m sure you also know that lycaenidae is the second largest family of butterflies which contain around 6000 different species worldwide.
As for the Blues (polyommatinae) not all of them feed on the same particular species of plant & not all of them depend solely on 1 specie of ant, as you’ve already mentioned some don’t even need ants to complete their life cycle & some have been known to use 2-3 or more different species of ants.
The experts do have some idea what some of the ant blues eat.... some of them stay on the food plant & eat aphids, secreting a sugar solution (like aphids) and are protected by the ants in much the same way aphids are..... Some of them still produce the sugar secretions, but instead eat ant larvae (as observed by small cameras that have been placed inside ants nests) & not all of their caterpillars live their entire life in an ants nest.
I have heard of some them being able to produce pheromones that imitate the smell of the host ant species which helps the ants in finding them (although like you say.. more research is needed & is being done) I do know that like aphids some can produce a sweet solution that the ants find attractive & some can produce sounds or vibrations that could possibly communicate with the ants & in some cases the ants take this valuable food source that can also resemble their own pupae (some produce sounds & vibrations that mimic the ants larvae) back to the brood chamber in the nest where it is protected by the ants & much safer underground where it completes its life cycle....some will also over winter as pupae, like the large blue (Maculinea arion)
[SIZE=+0]Thanks for suggesting a possible ID on the butterfly, we were struggling here & I’m not too familiar with the Australian species, however I did google the name you gave & the info I got back claimed that this particular species is sometimes attended by ants[/SIZE]
http://www.jcu.edu.au/discovernature/butterfliescommon/JCUDEV_005824.html
This page gives a larger list of foodplants
http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~rbg/labradus_ds.htm
Good luck hornet....let us know how you get on
Miss_Croft
Active Member
I think the ant blue that eats ant larva you are referring to is what they call the butterfly moth (it lives in a green ant nest) and it feeds on the ants and ant larva. The ants try and eject them from their nest. The ones I use to catch would secrete a sugary substance much like aphids.
The caterpillar is offered the following:
Protection
Cleaning of fungus (their caterpillars are very sensitive to fungus)
Somewhere to shelter from the elements (Both cold and heat)
You are right the caterpillars do communicate with the ants by both pheromones (Generally ant specific) and vibrations.
But the common grass blues are very common in Australia. If you open your eyes you will see them nearly anywhere you travel. I have seen them from far south of Victoria to Queensland.
I chose the common grass blue due to the line around edge of the wing and size is about 2 cm. The blues I use to grow out were much larger and have a strong pattern under the wings.
The caterpillar is offered the following:
Protection
Cleaning of fungus (their caterpillars are very sensitive to fungus)
Somewhere to shelter from the elements (Both cold and heat)
You are right the caterpillars do communicate with the ants by both pheromones (Generally ant specific) and vibrations.
But the common grass blues are very common in Australia. If you open your eyes you will see them nearly anywhere you travel. I have seen them from far south of Victoria to Queensland.
I chose the common grass blue due to the line around edge of the wing and size is about 2 cm. The blues I use to grow out were much larger and have a strong pattern under the wings.
Moreliaman
Very Well-Known Member
You might want to check that, theres quite a few specie of lycaenidae butterfly larvae that are known to eat ant larvae, i know the large blue here does & seeing as youve got around 150 different species of lycaenidae in aus, im sure there must be a few species in aus that do, I wouldnt have thought its just isolated to the large blue.
Whats this moth you are referring too ??? sounds interesting...any latin name ?
I cant wait to come over & start seeing some of youre australian stuff....im bored with the british stuff now...we only have about 120ish species of butterlfies here:lol:
Whats this moth you are referring too ??? sounds interesting...any latin name ?
I cant wait to come over & start seeing some of youre australian stuff....im bored with the british stuff now...we only have about 120ish species of butterlfies here
:lol:
Moreliaman
Very Well-Known Member
Here you go miss...... found this site which if you highlight a specie & click on submit it gives info on which species of australian lycaenidae that eat ant larvae (myrmecophageous)
http://flyaqis.mov.vic.gov.au/cgi-bin/texhtml?form=bio_entot
http://flyaqis.mov.vic.gov.au/cgi-bin/texhtml?form=bio_entot
Miss_Croft
Active Member
I really only have experience with Ogyris (The ones I caught eat mistletoe and lived with some wood ants (Small red ants with a white tip on their admin)
As for eating of the ant larva – Many of the caterpillars live in the ant nest and they have filmed (I have seen film of) what they call month butterfly (It is a type of ant blue that lives in a green ant nest). It looks much like a moth – I have only seen it on a documentary and here in the entomological groups it is given as the example of a "Myrmecophageous" butterfly.
The truth is they only suspect the caterpillars eat the ant larva – they may be eating fungus or be fed by the ants within the colony.
As with many insects, many of these butterflies have not been described by science. (Read if you find one it may be a “new” species).
As for eating of the ant larva – Many of the caterpillars live in the ant nest and they have filmed (I have seen film of) what they call month butterfly (It is a type of ant blue that lives in a green ant nest). It looks much like a moth – I have only seen it on a documentary and here in the entomological groups it is given as the example of a "Myrmecophageous" butterfly.
The truth is they only suspect the caterpillars eat the ant larva – they may be eating fungus or be fed by the ants within the colony.
As with many insects, many of these butterflies have not been described by science. (Read if you find one it may be a “new” species).
S
scorps
Guest
omg thijs is way to intence caterpilla talk
Miss_Croft
Active Member
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