Ld50

[da_donkey]

Can anyone explain LD50 to me or point me in the direction of some good entry level information on the subject of venoms / toxins.

any help would be great

thanx

donk

 

[junglepython2]

LD50 is the lethal dose required to kill 50% of the animals to which it is injected. Usually lab mice.
For an avergae inland taipan bite, ie if you took how much venom is usually injected and spread that out over 218,000 mice 50% of those would die, meaning it's LD50 per bite is 218,000.

In 'Australia snakes a natural history' by R.Shine there is a section on it that explains it better then I just did, it also has a table on the top 10 snakes world wide per bite, but I'm not sure how dated that info is though.

 

[Hickson]

LD50 refers to the Lethal Dose required to kill 50% of a population of target subjects. With snake venom, the targets are usually mice.

That's the very raw basics of it.



Hix

 

[Hickson]

For an avergae inland taipan bite, ie if you took how much venom is usually injected and spread that out over 218,000 mice 50% of those would die, meaning it's LD50 per bite is 218,000.

What?

The LD50 of an Inland Taipan is something like 0.00028.



Hix

 

[junglepython2]

What?

The LD50 of an Inland Taipan is something like 0.00028.



Hix

Sorry your right, I meant to say the average number of mouse LD50 doses per bite is 218,000 for the inland taipan.

 

[da_donkey]

Bump:?

Im still a bit confused,

So do they average out the amount of venom injected by a particular species, then inject that amount over how many mice? how much do they put in each mouse?

I hope i dont sound to stupid

donk

 

[salebrosus]

http://www.barefootbushman.com/venoms.htm

Simone.

 

[Jonno from ERD]

G'day donkey,

LD50 is a bit of a waste of time and doesn't really tell us much that is useful. Unfortunately, we're not allowed to conduct the tests on humans, and every animal reacts differently to venom, so all it is telling us is how potent these snakes would be if we were mice.

The way it works, is that they will have a set number of mice. They will inject each mouse with a set amount of venom and wait for (I think) 24 hours. They will then calculate how many of the mice are dead - if it is below 50%, they will increase the amount of venom, and if it is above 50% they will decrease it. They will continue this process until 50% of the mice are dead. They will then calculate how much venom it took to kill that 50%, and work it out into a milligram per kilogram result. For instance, an Inland Taipan has a LD50 rating of .025mg/kg which equates to about 2mg to kill a healthy adult male human.

Cheers

Jonno

 

[da_donkey]

Thanks simone, that table is quite interesting and surprising with the toxicity of some of the exotic vens.

Cheers Jonno, that makes alot more sence to me now. i am sure that we could find some scumbags here to test LD50 on. (purely for scientific reserch):lol:

donk

 

[nvenm8]

LD50 is a bit of a waste of time and doesn't really tell us much that is useful. Unfortunately, we're not allowed to conduct the tests on humans, and every animal reacts differently to venom, so all it is telling us is how potent these snakes would be if we were mice.


Cheers

Jonno

You crack me up Jonno, and how right you are! I know a few people that would be very suited to testing! :lol::lol:

 

[salebrosus]

Thanks simone, that table is quite interesting and surprising with the toxicity of some of the exotic vens.

Cheers Jonno, that makes alot more sence to me now. i am sure that we could find some scumbags here to test LD50 on. (purely for scientific reserch):lol:

donk

Well when i first looked at that table i looked at my favourite elapid (Copperhead) and thought oh how cute. he's 1.0 compared to 50.0 of the Inland Taipan. Then i saw that he packs as much punch as the Indian Cobra and i thought "oh maybe' he's not so mild" after all. Pretty interesting read though.

AND i still want my Copperhead.

Simone.

 

[Chrisreptile]

so looking at that table an inland taipan is 50X more toxic than an indian cobra.
and a RBBS is one fith as toxic as an indian cobra.

 

[junglepython2]

Those tables are only for venom toxicity, they don't take into account the amount of venom usually injected or the depth for example.
So the Stephen's banded snake is higher on the list then a king brown, even though most would prefer to take their chances with a bite from a Stephens then a King Brown.

 

[salebrosus]

That's because the King Brown has such a high venom yield. Yeah- i would take my chances with a Stephens before a Mulga.

Simone.

 

[Hickson]

Or a Copperhead over a King Cobra.



Hix

 

[salebrosus]

Or a Copperhead over a King Cobra.



Hix

I might agree with that one Hix, but i don't think ssssnakeman's wife would agree. A bite from a Copperhead put the poor lady in ICU.

Simone.

 

[jordo]

If you want to learn a bit more about it check out this site http://www.venomdoc.com/

 

[da_donkey]

If you want to learn a bit more about it check out this site http://www.venomdoc.com/

Thanks heaps jordo that was exactly what i was looking for

 

[Hickson]

I might agree with that one Hix, but i don't think ssssnakeman's wife would agree. A bite from a Copperhead put the poor lady in ICU.

Simone.

A King Cobra would have put her in the ground.
But I take your point.



HIx