jas468
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Is there a way of determining the sex of a bluey without probing?
Cheers
Craig
Is there a way of determining the sex of a bluey without probing?
Cheers
Craig
Sexing Bluetongues
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Hi there Jas, there are three ways I've discovered that are sure fire, and about a million others that could provide you with clues. When all the clues are added up in one column, you can sometimes make a pretty good guess. Here are some of the clues, but do not provide 100% proof.
# Large bulky head—There are no set sizes for blue tongued skinks. When it comes to sheer body size, males are not bigger than females, and females are not bigger than males (generally speaking). Naturally, if you have a very large female, she will likely have a very large head. If you have a very small male, he might have a very small head. To top it off, sometimes heads are even disproportionate. If an animal was malnourished during his crucial first year, his growth may have been stunted. This can affect all sizes of the animal. Tail length, body length, head shape/size, etc. The point is, looking at your animal and observing (what you think) is a large head is not accurate because any number of the above mentioned variables could be in affect. All in all, blue tongued skinks come in many shapes and sizes, male or female. Generally however, males do tend to have bulkier heads than females in comparably sized and analogous species, but remember to consider all the variables and remember that nothing is concrete. For example, if you browse some of the pictures on this site I'll bet you can't recognize which are male and which are female based on head shape—Try it!
# Slimmer sides—I've heard and read about this method all over the place, and it's supposed to indicate male. It is a grossly inaccurate method however because the majority of captive bred skinks out there are pretty fat! Diet plays a large role in the shape and size of your skink, and again, skinks (male or female) come in many shapes and sizes. And what are "slim sides" exactly? It's a subjective term as slim sides could mean a slim skink, or maybe just a narrow shape? Or maybe it is just the outer shape of the sides of the stomach that need to be curved a certain way, or NOT curved! Determining exactly what "slim sides" means entirely depends upon who's reading it, and how they personally comprehend it. I have always taken it to mean just a "thin skink". Slim sides says to me, a thin cylindrical aerodynamic body, and I think that all blue tongued skinks have this characteristic for the most part.
# Husky throat—Another supposed male trait that essentially, does not mean anything. Some people think that males seem to have somewhat of a "craw" looking throat sort of like a male pigeon. I do see this, but I've seen the same characteristics in females. Plus, not all males have this feature anyway.
# Eye shape and color—One of the most widely written about and popular methods—it is often said that males have bright orange eyes while females have brown eyes. Nothing could be farther from the truth as I've seen brown, orange, and everything in between present on both males and females. I don't know how this got started; perhaps the idea was borrowed from another reptile species. It's surprising that it is so widely written about, but is not even close to being even somewhat accurate. I wonder if this method stems from the simple fact that a person can look at eye color, assume they know, and be happy. The majority of people are interested in knowing gender so that they can appropriately name their animal, and be confident calling it a him or her. In these cases, 100% I.D is not crucial because no breeding is being done (you obviously have to be 100% positive of gender in order to breed), thusly gender determination by eye color is just fine with the average person.
# Thick tail base—Yet another method for determining the sex of the male. The male hemipenes are generally, a pretty big organ. If you've ever seen them during defecation or mating, you know that they can pop out pretty far, and are a pretty good size. When they are tucked away in the general area of the base of the tail, sometimes the sheer mass of the organ can push on the inside walls of the tail creating a bit of a bulge. Sometimes lifting the tail in a "c" shape toward the head can create a better viewing angle. This method can give you a pretty good idea, but the only problem is that lots of fat is stored in the tail; especially on well fed animals. What you see as a possible male with a thick tail base could very well be a healthy tail with plenty of fat storage. It can be difficult to differentiate, especially to the untrained eye. That's why this method is not 100%.
# Squeezing the tail base—Similar to the above method, this method is used for "feeling" the hemipenes packed away inside the tail. The organ is soft, so when you squeeze the tail base (from the left and right) and it feels a bit squishy, this is supposed to indicate male. The female would have more of a hard solid tail base because of the lack of the soft organs. Again however, fat storage comes into play. Fat is not a hard substance, so if you have a healthy female with lots of fat storage (remember fat is stored in the tail), then one could very well mistake the squishy fat for squishy hemipenes.
# Breeding marks on back—Seeing scars and/or a "roughed up" area near the neck and upper back are good indications that the animal is female. What you're seeing is likely breeding marks inflicted when the male bred the female. This is a good indication, but not 100% as a male could have attacked another male in an "attempt" to breed. It could also just be a wound or scar from a fight.
# Popping/Probing—Popping is when an individual "pops" out the male's hemipenes by force. It is much easier to accomplish with babies and juveniles, but usually much more difficult with adults. It's also not 100%—if a person is unable to pop out the hemipenes, he might automatically assume that he has a female. This is not the case—the hemipenes just might be so tightly packed away that they cannot be popped out. When this occurs, many will just assume that the gender is female. Especially if he doesn't know what he's doing. I actually know of several very experienced people that have been wrong many a time using this method. It can also be dangerous—forcing the male to evert his sex organs could very well damage/sterilize them. This is basically what is done: Usually two people turn the animal in an awry or upside down position, take a steel bar a little bit thinner than a pencil, force back the flap, stick in their thumb, and force the hemipenes out. In my opinion, this shouldn't be done. Usually, the person hardly knows what he's doing, although there are actually a handful of individuals that can use this method fairly efficiently. The chances of you coming across a "real" expert however, are slim to none. One problem is that anyone who offers to pop your skink will most likely claim to know exactly what he's doing. Anybody can exaggerate or even lie, and it's a bit scary. That's another reason I would never allow any of my animals to be popped by anybody simply because you cannot tell if that person has popped a hundred animals, or maybe only five animals. You just can't be sure unless the person is a close friend. If a person IS able to evert the hemipenes however, then obviously you do have a male, but I wouldn't even take the risk to begin with. I would only reserve this method for tight knit reptile groups, and herpers who personally know each other and are comfortable popping their animals. Popping and probing is also known to sterilize the animal. This of course means, depriving the animal of the ability to produce sperm/offspring. Lastly, you risk dislocating or even breaking bones. This can happen much easier than one might think. If you attempt to hold your BTS upside down, he will wiggle and fight as if he were about to be eaten for lunch. When you force a BTS in an upside down position, he will tighten up and wiggle to his maximum strength. I've heard time and time again of animal's backs breaking, displaced hip bones, and even permanent paralysis. It's NOT worth it.
# Ultrasounds/X-rays—Ultrasounds can be used by detecting mature follicles in a female, but not immature females. Females normally sexually mature at around 2-3 years of age. This means of course, that this method would not work on two young animals. The only downside to this is that you'd need someone with a trained eye. Vets can make mistakes and some probably will not even know what they're looking at, so thusly, the method is not fully 100%, but still fairly effective. As I understand it, X-rays are dangerous to the animal, and should never be performed.
Here are the three ways that prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt and are totally safe:
# Ejection or dispersion of seminal plugs = MALE
# Eversion of hemipenes during excretion = MALE
# Expression or behavior. How does your animal react when placed with another blue tongue?
Good luck with your BTS.
# Large bulky head—There are no set sizes for blue tongued skinks. When it comes to sheer body size, males are not bigger than females, and females are not bigger than males (generally speaking). Naturally, if you have a very large female, she will likely have a very large head. If you have a very small male, he might have a very small head. To top it off, sometimes heads are even disproportionate. If an animal was malnourished during his crucial first year, his growth may have been stunted. This can affect all sizes of the animal. Tail length, body length, head shape/size, etc. The point is, looking at your animal and observing (what you think) is a large head is not accurate because any number of the above mentioned variables could be in affect. All in all, blue tongued skinks come in many shapes and sizes, male or female. Generally however, males do tend to have bulkier heads than females in comparably sized and analogous species, but remember to consider all the variables and remember that nothing is concrete. For example, if you browse some of the pictures on this site I'll bet you can't recognize which are male and which are female based on head shape—Try it!
# Slimmer sides—I've heard and read about this method all over the place, and it's supposed to indicate male. It is a grossly inaccurate method however because the majority of captive bred skinks out there are pretty fat! Diet plays a large role in the shape and size of your skink, and again, skinks (male or female) come in many shapes and sizes. And what are "slim sides" exactly? It's a subjective term as slim sides could mean a slim skink, or maybe just a narrow shape? Or maybe it is just the outer shape of the sides of the stomach that need to be curved a certain way, or NOT curved! Determining exactly what "slim sides" means entirely depends upon who's reading it, and how they personally comprehend it. I have always taken it to mean just a "thin skink". Slim sides says to me, a thin cylindrical aerodynamic body, and I think that all blue tongued skinks have this characteristic for the most part.
# Husky throat—Another supposed male trait that essentially, does not mean anything. Some people think that males seem to have somewhat of a "craw" looking throat sort of like a male pigeon. I do see this, but I've seen the same characteristics in females. Plus, not all males have this feature anyway.
# Eye shape and color—One of the most widely written about and popular methods—it is often said that males have bright orange eyes while females have brown eyes. Nothing could be farther from the truth as I've seen brown, orange, and everything in between present on both males and females. I don't know how this got started; perhaps the idea was borrowed from another reptile species. It's surprising that it is so widely written about, but is not even close to being even somewhat accurate. I wonder if this method stems from the simple fact that a person can look at eye color, assume they know, and be happy. The majority of people are interested in knowing gender so that they can appropriately name their animal, and be confident calling it a him or her. In these cases, 100% I.D is not crucial because no breeding is being done (you obviously have to be 100% positive of gender in order to breed), thusly gender determination by eye color is just fine with the average person.
# Thick tail base—Yet another method for determining the sex of the male. The male hemipenes are generally, a pretty big organ. If you've ever seen them during defecation or mating, you know that they can pop out pretty far, and are a pretty good size. When they are tucked away in the general area of the base of the tail, sometimes the sheer mass of the organ can push on the inside walls of the tail creating a bit of a bulge. Sometimes lifting the tail in a "c" shape toward the head can create a better viewing angle. This method can give you a pretty good idea, but the only problem is that lots of fat is stored in the tail; especially on well fed animals. What you see as a possible male with a thick tail base could very well be a healthy tail with plenty of fat storage. It can be difficult to differentiate, especially to the untrained eye. That's why this method is not 100%.
# Squeezing the tail base—Similar to the above method, this method is used for "feeling" the hemipenes packed away inside the tail. The organ is soft, so when you squeeze the tail base (from the left and right) and it feels a bit squishy, this is supposed to indicate male. The female would have more of a hard solid tail base because of the lack of the soft organs. Again however, fat storage comes into play. Fat is not a hard substance, so if you have a healthy female with lots of fat storage (remember fat is stored in the tail), then one could very well mistake the squishy fat for squishy hemipenes.
# Breeding marks on back—Seeing scars and/or a "roughed up" area near the neck and upper back are good indications that the animal is female. What you're seeing is likely breeding marks inflicted when the male bred the female. This is a good indication, but not 100% as a male could have attacked another male in an "attempt" to breed. It could also just be a wound or scar from a fight.
# Popping/Probing—Popping is when an individual "pops" out the male's hemipenes by force. It is much easier to accomplish with babies and juveniles, but usually much more difficult with adults. It's also not 100%—if a person is unable to pop out the hemipenes, he might automatically assume that he has a female. This is not the case—the hemipenes just might be so tightly packed away that they cannot be popped out. When this occurs, many will just assume that the gender is female. Especially if he doesn't know what he's doing. I actually know of several very experienced people that have been wrong many a time using this method. It can also be dangerous—forcing the male to evert his sex organs could very well damage/sterilize them. This is basically what is done: Usually two people turn the animal in an awry or upside down position, take a steel bar a little bit thinner than a pencil, force back the flap, stick in their thumb, and force the hemipenes out. In my opinion, this shouldn't be done. Usually, the person hardly knows what he's doing, although there are actually a handful of individuals that can use this method fairly efficiently. The chances of you coming across a "real" expert however, are slim to none. One problem is that anyone who offers to pop your skink will most likely claim to know exactly what he's doing. Anybody can exaggerate or even lie, and it's a bit scary. That's another reason I would never allow any of my animals to be popped by anybody simply because you cannot tell if that person has popped a hundred animals, or maybe only five animals. You just can't be sure unless the person is a close friend. If a person IS able to evert the hemipenes however, then obviously you do have a male, but I wouldn't even take the risk to begin with. I would only reserve this method for tight knit reptile groups, and herpers who personally know each other and are comfortable popping their animals. Popping and probing is also known to sterilize the animal. This of course means, depriving the animal of the ability to produce sperm/offspring. Lastly, you risk dislocating or even breaking bones. This can happen much easier than one might think. If you attempt to hold your BTS upside down, he will wiggle and fight as if he were about to be eaten for lunch. When you force a BTS in an upside down position, he will tighten up and wiggle to his maximum strength. I've heard time and time again of animal's backs breaking, displaced hip bones, and even permanent paralysis. It's NOT worth it.
# Ultrasounds/X-rays—Ultrasounds can be used by detecting mature follicles in a female, but not immature females. Females normally sexually mature at around 2-3 years of age. This means of course, that this method would not work on two young animals. The only downside to this is that you'd need someone with a trained eye. Vets can make mistakes and some probably will not even know what they're looking at, so thusly, the method is not fully 100%, but still fairly effective. As I understand it, X-rays are dangerous to the animal, and should never be performed.
Here are the three ways that prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt and are totally safe:
# Ejection or dispersion of seminal plugs = MALE
# Eversion of hemipenes during excretion = MALE
# Expression or behavior. How does your animal react when placed with another blue tongue?
Good luck with your BTS.
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