Top of Descent

[hardcorey007]

Hi all,

Just wondering about the use of Top of Descent. I have been reading a lot of the past posts about its use. There seems a real conflict between the instructions and what people are actually doing. On the instructions it clearly states to remove the reptile, but in most of the post people suggest leaving the reptile in. I am a bit unsure of the correct way to go. How can it work if the snake is not in the enclosure to receive the mist of spray?

Your thoughts, views and experience on the subject would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Corey.

 

[Sdaji]

I've seen reptiles (including baby elapids, pythons, skinks and geckoes) sprayed directly with TOD, even heavily sprayed in airtight containers which have then been sealed and left overnight, with TOD fog coming out when the container was opened in the morning, with no ill effects. On the other hand, in two cases I've seen low exposure to TOD rapidly kill reptiles (snakes and lizards). In both of the cases where the animals died, they were heavily infested with mites, so I'm guessing it is very safe to use as a preventative and probably to treat very mild mite problems, but highly dangerous with animals which have a heavy mite burden - but please not that I'm not at all sure of this guess. I've never seen an animal have mild symptoms, they've either died or been completely symptom free. In one case the same can of TOD was used on several different groups of the same species, the first lot was mite-free and only treated as a precaution, another was intially mite-free in captivity, then mites took over, the infestation was heavy, the treatment was heavy, there were no problems (other than the feed insects introduced into the enclosure rapidly dying at every feed over the next few months!). In another case with the same species, same can of TOD and presumably the same species of mite (not Snake Mite), all lizards (I think the guy had about eight in that consignment) died within an hour or so. I am unsure as to why some lived and some died.

My observation is that animals either drop dead or are completely an utterly unaffected by it.

TOD will sometimes be effective if you spray the enclosure with the reptile not in it, as the residue will sometimes kill arthropods in it for months, but this depends on the type of enclosure, the type of cleaning you do, how thoroughly you spray the enclosure, etc etc.

I haven't had a mite outbreak for over ten years (back then TOD wasn't available and I cleared it up with pest strips). Prevention is better than cure! Are you using it as a prophylactic or to treat a known mite issue?

 

[herptrader]

I have noticed that feeder insects introduced into an enclosure will turn up their toes even a month or so down the track. In terms of mite control this is probably a good thing. It is also probably why it is so effective at controlling them.

We use TOD as a general insecticide, usually for controlling the population of escaped Feeder Roaches ;-)

 

[-Peter]

Couple of points, low ebb animals with heavy mite load often succumb to any treatment as their defences are shot to pieces. One of the few things I agree with Hoser on is the susceptability of adders to ToD. Ive had a blotched bluetongue curl up its toes after treatment in what appeared to be great health. No post-mortum so I wont blame the ToD.
I have used ToD for over ten years. Its been available for at least 40 as I was sprayed with it everytime I returned to Australia by plane.
Sdaji, if there is ToD fog coming from the container in the morning I would be calling in the parnormal event people. It settles son. Residue on the container I might believe or perhaps you should turn the foggers off.

 

[Choco]

As far as I'm aware (and this is just my opinion from what I've read and seen happen to pythons) if any trace of it comes into contact with your reptile you run a huge risk of it developing a problem with it's nervous system-commonly resulting in death. It's for disinfecting and/or cleaning the cage, not a reptile treatment. Remove the reptile, spray the cage and give it heaps of time to air out before replacing the reptile. Use similar precautions to a freshly painted cage.

 

[Sdaji]

Couple of points, low ebb animals with heavy mite load often succumb to any treatment as their defences are shot to pieces. One of the few things I agree with Hoser on is the susceptability of adders to ToD. Ive had a blotched bluetongue curl up its toes after treatment in what appeared to be great health. No post-mortum so I wont blame the ToD.
I have used ToD for over ten years. Its been available for at least 40 as I was sprayed with it everytime I returned to Australia by plane.
Sdaji, if there is ToD fog coming from the container in the morning I would be calling in the parnormal event people. It settles son. Residue on the container I might believe or perhaps you should turn the foggers off.

I've seen literally dozens of Adders treated with TOD in ridiculously extreme ways, including very heavy spraying directly on to the animal and immediately making the small container air tight. This includes over 10 babies which hadn't even had their first feeds. None of them showed any ill effects, it's probably worth pointing out that it is almost certain that not one of them had ever seen a single mite. I agree that heavily parasitised animals will be more susceptible due to their weaker immune systems and constitutions, but it seems strange that in some cases they'll immediately drop dead even when they were barely exposed to it and in other cases a deliberately extreme dose doesn't even make them blink (or snake equivalent). I suspect that in the cases where the animals died, the mites may have released something which killed the reptiles, rather than the reptiles being susceptible to the TOD. Maybe if mites are present, Death Adders will readily drop dead from TOD, I have never seen a Death Adder with mites exposed to it, I've only seen it used on them as a precaution.

Yes, I know that if left undisturbed TOD settles. When the fog was coming out it was presumably the particles becoming airborne after being disturbed. The animals were in small ventilated containers inside plastic bags, I assume the particles didn't stick well to the bags. Yes, you're right ,they wouldn't have been sitting in fog all night. Nit picking aside, these animals (including baby Death Adders) showed no ill effects from the ridiculous dose of TOD.

And yes, you're right, it was available many years ago, although it was basically unknown to reptile people as a mite treatment, it was used on aircraft, I often tell the story too.

 

[-Peter]

Lets just say that generally we are in agreement.