WIRES reptile handling course

[Pinkie]

David, who are you to object if other experienced herpetologists choose to teach and educate others how to handle venomous snakes? I think education is a good thing. On the other hand it is sad that many herpetologists are so precious about this sort of thing. This thread started off on a positive note!

Whether you like it or not this is an abject admission that the courses you have done have failed to adequately equip you to deal with wild venomous snakes in high stress situations. You have done a course and think you can now go and take venomous snake on your own, but the fact is that your nervousness makes you a danger to yourself and to others because there is one simple rule: if you don't know what you are doing, don't do it!

I was told by a well-known herpetologist who I respect very much "the day you are overconfident with browns will be the day you get bitten". As I said I am not 100% confident, yes. However this doesn't mean I don't know what I am doing or that I am not "equipped" in stressful situations. You can know what you are doing without having to be overconfident about the way you do it.

When dealing with species such as brown snakes I am cautious and wary of the animal and what it is doing. I take my time rather than rush in overconfidently. Are you 100+% confident David? Maybe this was why you were bitten?

And where was it mentioned that I go off on my own to handle these snakes? I go with a Wires buddy because we are both well aware that we are relatively new to this sort of thing, and having two people is a lot easier at times as there is someone to spot you and talk to you. You don't really know what goes on with us on an individual level and I would prefer you didn't make false assumptions.

No, getting bitten is not a "mandatory requirement". My intention was to hopefully point out to you that I am aware it can happen and am prepared for that situation if it does arise. You seemed to generalise in your post by saying these courses give us a "false sense of confidence", well I think we were just trying to point out to you that they don't. I have built up my confidence with elapids since I first started and will continue to do so.

Anyhow I really dont see why we have to justify ourselves to you. I am just happy that the people who do run these courses choose to educate rather than write us newer herpers off altogether like some.

 

[toxinologist]

Pinkie said:

Anyhow I really dont see why we have to justify ourselves to you.

Nobody said you had to justify yourself to anyone, so get off your high horse and read what was written instead of carrying on

I gave my opinion based on my experience ... which whether you like it or not is substantially greater than your own (by your own implied admissions)

It is entirely up to you whether you take my advice or not, and no skin of my nose whatsoever if you chose not to.

David, who are you to object if other experienced herpetologists choose to teach and educate others how to handle venomous snakes? I think education is a good thing. On the other hand it is sad that many herpetologists are so precious about this sort of thing

I'm an individual with appropriate experience to make qualified judgements of the supposed benefits of these courses. Based on my experience both as a herpetologist and as a scientist who specialises in studying snakebite and its effects & consequences, my qualified judgement is that these courses are not sufficient to adequately prepare people to attempt to handle highly venomous snakes.

There is nothing "precious" whatsoever about my opinion. It is a professional opinion based on experience, and if you chose to ignore it then that is your perogative, and entirely up to you. Being snide about it simply demonstrates to me that you are not worth giving advice to in the first place, and is a perfect example of why I typically don't offer help to new herpers - they've bitten the hand that helps them once too often - and a lot of my peers have experienced exactly the same sad syndrome.

Obviously we shall have to agree to disagree, and I wish you luck.

Cheers


David

 

[Slateman]

please calm down people.
Pinkie and David expressed they opinion and they did it so well. I enjoyed this entire topic enormously.
Do not start to push your argument to far, you already said enough for all other readers to make they mind on the subject.

David you did get bit hot in one comment and I deleted it Sorry.
I had to deleted one members thread, and next time please do not try to fix abuse of one by abusing even more the other person

Thank you for great argument you had in civilise manner.

 

[saikrett]

i agree with toxinologist idea of a 12 month TAFE course, that way the students could be monitored over a long period of time and more importaintly learn about the serverity of various snake bites.

 

[mystic_herps]

And who would run these courses?
It is hard enough just to organise 2 day courses run 3 times a year at present...

 

[wattso]

Just a thought, snakes dont know or care who you are or what qualifications you may or may not have. Snakes just want to be left alone. They will strike if they feel threatened. Those who relocate or keep venomous snakes have a responsibilty to themselves/others to learn as much as possible about the snakes and be capable of handling them safely. who cares where or what institution you educate yourself , the bottom line is, confidence is no failsafe against danger, education is. People were handling venomous snakes long before there were any courses at all, most were self taught. You dont need to have a phd in common sense! :wink:

 

[Slateman]

And how you usually handle venomous snakes Watso?

 

[wattso]

I dont Slatey........Common sense mate! lol

 

[Slateman]

I just teased you bit profesor. I calling you profesor because all your knowledge is from reading. Looks like you read a lot. Well that is the way to get knowledge about our hoby. Not ewerybody can have 50 snakes home.

 

[adullthud]

David, If you are going to attribut quotes then attribut them all. Your post gives the imptression that the last two quotes are mine. Dont become another smuggler.
Peter
I shall respond in full when I have a little more time

 

[mystic_herps]

As a member of WIRES I have an unbiased opinion on this topic.
I feel any education/training is an advantage HOWEVER I see Davids point also.A 2 day course (roughly 16 hours) is far from enough to ready anyone for Elapids BUT if that is the only training we can get in the hobby then that will have to do.Then again,anyone can get an upgraded RK licence to keep Elapids easily enough without any handling experience whatsoever.So in a way it has its pro's & it's cons...

Also I think it should be said that out of those 16 hr WIRES courses there is a mix of theory & practical.Also as there is only 1-2 instructors to a class of several the practical time is distributed between the members individually (even less time spent dealing with the practical side per person,as you have your go then watch the next person etc.).So at the end of the course we have rescuers/relocaters that have only done a few hrs handling time,is this really enough?

But again this is the only educating/training we can get as nobody runs any permanent courses or long term courses to help with this sort of handling.So personally I am all for it although I agree it is very limited on an educated basis,but we learn as we go along...

Just food for thought.

 

[wattso]

I just teased you bit profesor. I calling you profesor because all your knowledge is from reading. Looks like you read a lot. Well that is the way to get knowledge about our hoby. Not ewerybody can have 50 snakes home.

:? was this funny message to me Slatey? not sure I understand about "50 snakes"??I have only one python you saw him. :? ???
[scratches head] Yes I do read alot, my local library has given me my own key, lol . I love to read about things that interest me, I have read alot about brain surgery too but thats not to say I will put my hand to practicle knowledge., lol, any volanteers?

P.s. I reread it Slatey, I see what you mean, not everyone has lots of snakes for first hand "practicle knowledge". ok ..........you like new sig? I will keep funny nickname, mate

 

[Pinkie]

Also as there is only 1-2 instructors to a class of several the practical time is distributed between the members individually

Wasn't really willing to post again after petty personal attacks but just have to point out this is wrong John. 28 trainees attended my last course and 15 trainers. You do the math
We also got one-on-one handling for a couple of hours each afternoon if we so desired. [/quote]

 

[mystic_herps]

That was the St Marys ADI site yea?
Well I stand corrected if this is so...
I was just relaying what I had been told by many members including trainers (well how I interpreted it anyway).

I was under the impression that there was only Wal & Maggie training members in this course.I had said 1-2 trainers as I have since heard that Maggie will no longer be training anymore so I was unsure whether there would be 1 or 2 if they decided to replace her.The reason I had this impression was many WIRES members had told me the 2 main trainers (I guess), including Wal when I approached him about the course (spoke to him and a few others that were attending again for a refresher at a flying fox course held at John Maroney) all with the notion that Wal and/or Maggie does the training with no inclusion of any other trainers or trainee's when they told me.Anyway the course sounds to be run better than I had thought intentionally.Still I would like to see more handling hours being performed BUT as I said you have to take what you can get & this is the only course available really...

I was supposed to attend the armidale course but thought it too far to drive lol.Oh well, there is always next year...

 

[adullthud]

I just spent half an hour responding to David's post and then scrapped it. The reason is that what he is talking about is not what I am talking about. The course I run is for members of a wildlife rescue organisation and for people who have decided to help in the area of reptiles. Part of the service includes venemous reptiles and we oblige. We cannot send our members out cold and without some scrutiny beforehand. The vocational courses in Queensland have no bearing on this and are an issue he should persue with the appropriate authorities in Qld.
On the point of snke bite being part of the whole thing. Being bitten is a real possibility. It is not a death sentence, Yes we do have an amazing medical backup system. That you deem we should lay down and die surprises me.l From a professional such as yourself I find this quite mystifying. As a toxicoligist you must feel then that you are wasting your time.
I know that most of the world does not have access to the levels of medical care that we do. I applaud those that endeavour to rectify this but at the same time I am not going to discount its existance here
The thing is that without some training for rescuers you would be left with the circus acts to do the removals.

 

[toxinologist]

Hi all (one last time on this thread...)

My point about snakebite is that it is inappropriate to apparently downplay the consequences with statements such as:

It is not a death sentence, Yes we do have an amazing medical backup system

Herpers should not be thinking "if I get bitten, I'll be okay" because regardless of whether of not our medical services are first-rate or not, the individual outcome of a snakebite is still far from a medical certainty, especially when you are talking about bites from species in the genera Pseudonaja, Notechis, Tropidechis or Oxyuranus. Dying after the bite of a snake in any of these genera is a very real possibility, and responsible herpers don't downplay these risks with flippant remarks.

Training people to work with these snakes is not the issue either. The issue is the brevity of experience new herpers/wildlife carers are given in a 1 or 2 day course, and in my opinion this is insufficient experience to then have those same people going out and attempting to catch highly venomous snakes in urban situations where both the catcher and the snake are under extreme stress.

I took the trouble to followup my comments with the suggestion that someone consider developing a more comprehensive training course, and frankly it surprises me that this was met with nothing but cynicism and dismissal. Anyone here with more than a few years experience would know that a very successful TAFE course in reptile husbandry, handling and care was operated by Dr Harry Ehmann and others at the then Sydney TAFE (now University of Technology) for several years - so doing this is neither impossible nor impractical.

Volunteer wildlife care organisations have a legal duty of care to both the volunteers who take up the call to perform rescues/rehabilitations, and to the general public. My opinion (ie: the one that I would give under oath as an expert witness at a coronial inquest into the death of a volunteer herper/rescuer killed after attempting to catch a brown snake with no more experience than a 2 day WIRES Reptile Handling Course) is that providing only 1-2 days of structured training would be insufficient to meet that duty of care, and given the potential dangers, patently negligent.

It is in the longterm interests of these organisations to sit down with qualified experts and review their current training to determine if it is really sufficient or not, and if not, to then develop a course that this appropriate to ensuring the safety of their volunteers and the general public, and adequately and professional discharging their duty of care responsibilities.

Bottom line:

1. By all means send out volunteers to rescue/rehabilitate venomous snakes but if you are an officer of an organisation under whose umbrella that volunteer works - you have a legal responsibility to minimise the risks to that volunteer.

2. Current 1-2 day handling courses do not in my opinion meet this legal obligation because they do not provide adequate, sufficient appropriate training and experience to these volunteers.

3. Development of a more comprehensive course by the organisations currently running short courses would substantially remedy this problem and greatly reduce the ongoing risk to participants once they go out to actually perform rescues/captures.

Instead of shooting the messenger I would urge people in these organisations, or those involved in the currently available courses to think about the issue and perhaps take appropriate steps to improve their services.

Did I also mention that particularly for charity/non-funded groups - running a longer course through a TAFE would bring in (1) wages for the trainers, and (2) course fees to fund your activities...

Cheers


David Williams

 

[Slateman]

I must say that this is not bad idea. I am listening all points of view and with mine limited knowledge, All people in this debate have valuable points. I would like if somebody can make article from all this.
I can see my self that this 2 days courses do have value to our herp. community, but they are definitely not enough to go in the people property to catch King brown and relocate it. To dangerous. But as Pinkie said, thanks got at least for that and till we have nothing else we have to be grateful for little. Wires deserve thank you for that course. Don't forget it is volunteer organization.

 

[Nicole]

I'm not particularly keen to own hots (but do have a certain weakness for RBBSs, that may be an exception), but I'd love a TAFE course as described by David on all aspects of reptile husbandry, (not ven specific), and just for interests sake.

I think this is something I'd like to follow up...
I guess I'll ask TAFE and the Herp Soc... short of that, anyone know who else we can bug about it?

 

[Nicole]

BTW. I'm in favour of the WIRES course and would do it if I could.
As others have said, it's all that's out there... but again, I'm not a rescuer etc, it'd be just for interests sake, I wouldn't be approaching vens outside of the course.

 

[Slateman]

Yes i would be afraid to handle wild browns my self Nicole. Bit of the problem is that you always find some owerconfident young boys who do not have feer. But I would enjoy cours just to get more experiance.