Is it cruel to keep a snake in a 4’x2’x2’ box?

[Jazzz]

Dolphins are the only other animal that has sex for pleasure =] fun fact of the day

 

[Torah]

YAY i cant wait till this is proved ! I know my snakes have feelings/moods etc always have ...

 

[Snakeluvver2]

Sometimes I call my girlfriend an ani....nothing

 

[Nathan_T]

More and more evidence is coming forth that all vertebrates not only have feelings such as fear and pain, but also ‘positive’ feelings such as joy and pleasure. These pleasurable feelings point animals to behaviour thati s (mostly) good for them.

Do you have any references for these studies? I'm quite interested as I've not seen anything on the subject particularly.

The commonalities that all vertebrates including Homo sapiens have include: a nervous system (including the brain)

Our brains are immensely different from other vertebrates. I can't really find any photos of a snake brain, but even a rat brain (with rats generally considered intelligent animals) the structure is so simplified as to make the comparison almost meaningless.

Now it is not hard to infer that as most of the Homo sapien species have certain physical and emotional reactions under certain stimuli, that other vertebrates that have similar physical reactions under certain stimuli also have similar emotional reactions, especially when we understand the physical and chemical similiarities between vertebrates.

It's not hard to infer, but it is logically invalid to infer. Pain and touch is quite simple to map neurologically (comparatively speaking). We barely understand "higher order" emotions to the point where we're even sure what neurological structures govern them.

Truth be told, having feelings is a wonderful way to ‘get’animals to do what is best for them. Otherwise why else would we have sex if not for pleasure? Or why would we fill that gnawing pit in our stomach? Or drink to quench a thirst? Or lay in the sun on a beautiful spring day? All feelings, that through natural selection, form part of the behaviour of who we and they are.

Because it is instinctual that we do these things. Again, comparing a hunger response to enjoying the warmth of a spring day is like comparing a snake to a stick. They're both shaped kind of similarly after all. Both contain chemicals and molecules.

In a snakes case in the wild, some positive emotions could be the excitement of hunting, the thrill of the chase, enjoyment of the sun on its back, pleasure in moving/exploring new environments, feeling of bark, sticks, sand and perhaps moving water over its scales. Also, the sexual lust and desire of seeking a mate, and then the ecstasy of having sex with its mate. The feeling of being free to move wherever you want, without being trapped in a box. Joy in discovering a new hide. Joy in discovering and tasting and smelling a new food. The feeling of a warm breeze on its body.

They could be, they could not be. As far as I'm aware, there's no evidence to support your belief (though I'd love to read over any studies if you could link them). For example, with about 20 bucks in parts from dick smiths, I could build a robot car that would turn towards light and approach it. I do not then make the argument that this is because the robot enjoys the warmth of the sunshine and the feel of the ground at its wheels

 

[Minka]

This thread is hurting snakes feelings.

 

[slim6y]

Dolphins are the only other animal that has sex for pleasure =] fun fact of the day

It's also been noted a few primate species do as well... In fact some choose to do it with their own family or in a group... Adding to your fun fact of the day

 

[Bez84]

Dolphins are the only other animal that has sex for pleasure =] fun fact of the day

Tell that the the chimps at the zoo beating off....

 

[AndrewHenderson]

It's also been noted a few primate species do as well... In fact some choose to do it with their own family or in a group... Adding to your fun fact of the day

Yeah i think they live on an island just south of Australia's mainland

 

[D3pro]

Snakes aren't social bunnies that need to be cuddled...
Most of you are just imprinting your own human perception on them.... like a child with a pet rock lol

 

[killimike]

Personally, I think there's a fair bit of transference goin on... they are creatures very much unlike us, take their being ectotherms and only eating rarely... that would make us very unhappy, but not them!

Hopefully we are all consistent here, and are vegans, as are our snakes, given that our food animals (for us and for snakes) are kept in more crowded and utilitarian conditions than many snakes.

 

[Jazzz]

Hey I'm just going off what my Uni lecturer told me

 

[D3pro]

Hopefully we are all consistent here, and are vegans, as are our snakes, given that our food animals (for us and for snakes) are kept in more crowded and utilitarian conditions than many snakes.

Interesting thought... no one complains about the crowded conditions that the feeder rats have... Compared to snakes who don't care much about space...

 

[Elapidae1]

Interesting thought... no one complains about the crowded conditions that the feeder rats have... Compared to snakes who don't care much about space...

This takes us back to the opening post and "anthropomorphism" The rats are just food and that allows us to disasociate ourselves from them, whereis most of us on the forum have a passion/love for snakes and reptiles and therefore associate our feelings with them more so than the rats.

 

[slim6y]

I'd sort of hope that as herpetologists we'd have a love for animals in general and - yes, especially for reptiles. But the fact that we love reptiles should also indicate our open-mindedness and therefore compassion for any variety of animals.

When I buy rats off my supplier, I have seen his huge cages and killing techniques. I was happy enough with that and used him as my supplier.

I would be reluctant to buy rats kept in tiny cages.

 

[Elapidae1]

At the rate my rodents are being bred and knocked of I don't really think they have a chance to think about their cage dimensions

 

[Earthling]

Do you have any references for these studies? I'm quite interested as I've not seen anything on the subject particularly.

Read Pleasurable Kingdom by Jonathon Balcombe.

This is not a new concept. George Romanesin 1884 said “ pleasures and pains must have been evolved as the subjective accompaniment of processes which are respectively beneficial or injurious to the organism, and so evolved for the purpose or to the end that the organism should seek the one and shun the other.”

Do an experiment yourself and go and pat a vertebrate – say a dog or a cat. Then beat the same animal a few times with apiece of 4x2; observe and report…common sense…something science with its desire for hard facts is lacking in?

Pleasure helps animals maintain a stable state. When we are cold we seek warmth and it feels good. Same with other vertebrates. Nature rewards a cold animal who finds warmth, and visa versa. All an animal needs for this to work is the capacity to experience surroundings as pleasant or unpleasant, and move to a preferred environment. Sensory pleasure induces behaviors that improve homeostatis. Common sense.

According to American Neuroscientist Jaak Panksepp,the core emotions – fear, rage, panic, play, seeking and lust – arise from the deep recesses of our primitive brains, and are believed to have evolved long BEFORE consciousness.

Opiate receptors in human brains allow us to perceive stimuli such as sweet tastes. Panksepp has shown that when rats play, their brains release large amounts of dopamine and opiates (I wonder what that does and why it happens if it doesn’t make them feel good?). When both human and rats are given drugs that block these receptors, they rate the sweetness of normally liked foods as less pleasant than normal.
All the above quotes from the book Pleasurable Kingdomby Jonathon Balcombe

Our brains are immensely different from other vertebrates. I can't really find any photos of a snake brain, but even a rat brain (with rats generally considered intelligent animals) the structure is so simplified as to make the comparison almost meaningless.

Meaningless? What!Remember size is not whats important its what you do with it that counts…do some research and prove to me its meaningless.

It's not hard to infer, but it is logically invalid to infer. Pain and touch is quite simple to map neurologically (comparatively speaking). We barely understand "higher order" emotions to the point where we're even sure what neurological structures govern them.

Why logically invalid? Just because science barely understands does not mean its not true.

Because it is instinctual that we do these things. Again, comparing a hunger response to enjoying the warmth of a spring day is like comparing a snake to a stick. They're both shaped kind of similarly after all. Both contain chemicals and molecules.

Very bad analogy on your part. I am comparing feelings as controlling behavior, not shapes! Feeling hungry, feeling cold….feeling full, feeling warm. Get it?

Instinct. What a wonderful scientific word to explain away feelings, emotions and everything else we all do to survive and live a happy life. Its instinctive that I want to go and have sex with my partner and lots of it. Does not take away that it also feel goooooooood? I think not.

Martin Wikelski and Silke Baurle in ‘Proceedings of the Royal Society of London’ state marine iguanas do something called ‘non-ejaculatory masturbation’. Small males freeze in copulatory poses before approaching a receptive female, allowing them to deliver sperm quickly. It maybe the first time scientists have used the M word in connection with a reptile.

They could be, they could not be. As far as I'm aware, there's no evidence to support your belief (though I'd love to read over any studies if you could link them). For example, with about 20 bucks in parts from dick smiths, I could build a robot car that would turn towards light and approach it. I do not then make the argument that this is because the robot enjoys the warmth of the sunshine and the feel of the ground at its wheels

Its not a belief. The above Scientific studies point the way to facts…and that’s unfortunately the best we can do. Science is NEVER going to be able to tell us CONCLUSIVELY that animals think and feel better or worse then humans do, as we cannot see the world through their eyes. Same as I can never conclusively know whether all of these other humans on the planet feel and think like I do, however, from observing their behaviors and responses to stimuli I can INFER that it is probable that they feel similar reactions to stimuli as I do. Same with other vertebrates, we can infer.
Unfortunately this science proof thing is a rather large hole that society has been led down by science…that something is not true/real unless it can be proved so...you can blame Aristotle for that. After all the world was always round, well before the mere human thought it so.

 

[Defective]

one question, if a snake can have emotions then why can't lizards?

 

[Just_Plain_Nuts]

It will be some time before we will have an answer on this....we dont even understand how the human brain works yet...scientists are baffled by this. I myself am waiting till my death when I will be enlightened with all knowledge. For now i doubt that a snake or lizard has the needs for stimuli or fulfillment that we do. The higher the intelligence , the higher the needs to be kept interested and happy.

 

[whyme]

Read Pleasurable Kingdom by Jonathon Balcombe.

This is not a new concept. George Romanesin 1884 said “ pleasures and pains must have been evolved as the subjective accompaniment of processes which are respectively beneficial or injurious to the organism, and so evolved for the purpose or to the end that the organism should seek the one and shun the other.”

Do an experiment yourself and go and pat a vertebrate – say a dog or a cat. Then beat the same animal a few times with apiece of 4x2; observe and report…common sense…something science with its desire for hard facts is lacking in?

Pleasure helps animals maintain a stable state. When we are cold we seek warmth and it feels good. Same with other vertebrates. Nature rewards a cold animal who finds warmth, and visa versa. All an animal needs for this to work is the capacity to experience surroundings as pleasant or unpleasant, and move to a preferred environment. Sensory pleasure induces behaviors that improve homeostatis. Common sense.

According to American Neuroscientist Jaak Panksepp,the core emotions – fear, rage, panic, play, seeking and lust – arise from the deep recesses of our primitive brains, and are believed to have evolved long BEFORE consciousness.

Opiate receptors in human brains allow us to perceive stimuli such as sweet tastes. Panksepp has shown that when rats play, their brains release large amounts of dopamine and opiates (I wonder what that does and why it happens if it doesn’t make them feel good?). When both human and rats are given drugs that block these receptors, they rate the sweetness of normally liked foods as less pleasant than normal.
All the above quotes from the book Pleasurable Kingdomby Jonathon Balcombe




Meaningless? What!Remember size is not whats important its what you do with it that counts…do some research and prove to me its meaningless.




Why logically invalid? Just because science barely understands does not mean its not true.




Very bad analogy on your part. I am comparing feelings as controlling behavior, not shapes! Feeling hungry, feeling cold….feeling full, feeling warm. Get it?

Instinct. What a wonderful scientific word to explain away feelings, emotions and everything else we all do to survive and live a happy life. Its instinctive that I want to go and have sex with my partner and lots of it. Does not take away that it also feel goooooooood? I think not.

Martin Wikelski and Silke Baurle in ‘Proceedings of the Royal Society of London’ state marine iguanas do something called ‘non-ejaculatory masturbation’. Small males freeze in copulatory poses before approaching a receptive female, allowing them to deliver sperm quickly. It maybe the first time scientists have used the M word in connection with a reptile.





Its not a belief. The above Scientific studies point the way to facts…and that’s unfortunately the best we can do. Science is NEVER going to be able to tell us CONCLUSIVELY that animals think and feel better or worse then humans do, as we cannot see the world through their eyes. Same as I can never conclusively know whether all of these other humans on the planet feel and think like I do, however, from observing their behaviors and responses to stimuli I can INFER that it is probable that they feel similar reactions to stimuli as I do. Same with other vertebrates, we can infer.
Unfortunately this science proof thing is a rather large hole that society has been led down by science…that something is not true/real unless it can be proved so...you can blame Aristotle for that. After all the world was always round, well before the mere human thought it so.

I take it your one of those people who has been abducted by aliens? Reps are happy when they are warm, fed, or sleeping. I gave my Lacie a new footy the other day, and he totally ignored it. What a waste of money! I'll try a G.I Joe next.

 

[saximus]

Do an experiment yourself and go and pat a vertebrate – say a dog or a cat. Then beat the same animal a few times with apiece of 4x2; observe and report…common sense…something science with its desire for hard facts is lacking in?

Ever try "patting" a cranky scrubby to make it happy? Pretty sure you can't compare them just because they both have a spine