Are there RULES?????????????

Discussion in 'Australian Snakes' started by The Devil, May 12, 2010.

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  1. Boney

    Boney Very Well-Known Member

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    i dont go much on gossip but i wish i had more info on the persons that sold me captive breed perthensis and stimsons the other day that turned up with free ticks and RI
     
  2. Waterrat

    Waterrat Almost Legendary

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    I think there is a lot of compulsive buying going on. People see an attractive ad and assume that the advertised animals are equally attractive or better. Instead of taking the time and finding out about the seller, they rush in to buy.I think it's better to miss out on a seemingly good deal than buy quickly and face a disappointment later. Gossip is just that, what one needs is a solid, first hand information about the breeder and their animals. It's not always easy to get.
     
  3. clouded_mind

    clouded_mind Suspended Banned

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    So according to that newspaper report he pillaged & raped our wildlife stock and intended to introduce animals he recieved as a gift to an unknown locale?. Hopefully this person will take up keeping goldfish now (without letting them go in our waterways of course)
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2010
  4. ShadowDragon

    ShadowDragon Suspended Banned

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    That article which was just posted is about someone other than the demonstrator without the license. 2 different cases.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2010
  5. clouded_mind

    clouded_mind Suspended Banned

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    2 individuals in a weeks not bad though.
    Hopefully they will keep weeding these types out for us
     
  6. shellfisch

    shellfisch Very Well-Known Member

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    You are assuming that in any of the cases being bandied about in this thread, a crime has been committed....... :?
     
  7. Thank god for the men in brown shirts carrying gardening forks... saving us from 'these types'... whatever that means... Get a life you guys, and look after your own backyard before you stray into others. There is just as much propaganda coming from the 'authorities' with these cases as there is self-righteous judgement on forums like this. I know nothing of the individuals named in the articles, but they have been named and dealt with by the law, and now they get a second bite of the hangman's noose here. I don't condone what they did, but it won't harm me any more than it will harm any of you... and it's been dealt with.

    J
     
  8. Waterrat

    Waterrat Almost Legendary

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    Jamie, the first case (the presenter) hasn't been dealt with by the law and don't intend to comment on that at all. However, the article I posted is from a local paper that doesn't get wide distribution, hence most people wouldn't know that it happened. The guy was collecting wild snakes and probably sold a few here and there. This relates directly to this thread, at least the last part of it. Had this guy advertised "adult jungle carpets from an experienced breeder ......$200.-" how many people would be tempted to buy? They would be getting WC animals straight from the bush.
    It's for that reason I posted the article.
    Also, note the last sentence: "no conviction was recorded". VERY INTERESTING!
     
  9. Boney

    Boney Very Well-Known Member

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    nothing gets weeded out just because one got caught . they just sell there animals through there mates books . you never really know who your dealing with and where the animals are coming from . if your buying unknown poached animals or your buying captive breed stock things are never as they seem .
     
  10. CodeRed

    CodeRed Very Well-Known Member

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    Thats a good ole section 10 :) Found guilty but no conviction recorded. Very handy for burying those minor indiscretions :D
     
  11. ShadowDragon

    ShadowDragon Suspended Banned

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    Since when does it not harm anyone? For all you know, anyone posting in or reading these threads could have bought from or sold animals to any of these breeders. In the two QLD cases, anyone who has dealt with either of them will be looked at, their transactions will be scrutinised and they could end up in trouble as a result. Before you rush in and say that it won't happen, I know it will for a fact because I've seen it first hand in other cases. Breeders who have been trading under expired permits here have copped huge fines an drama and anyone who dealt with them were also looked at suspiciously, regardless of their knowledge of the situation. It may not work the same way in NSW, but in QLD, even if you don't realise the person's license you're trading with is expired you get a mark against your name which lasts forever, one more problem and your animals are taken. In one case at least the breeder was unlicensed for only around a week, due to his license not being processed despite payment going through - not a whole year and half of supposed ignorance. So, can you imagine what will happen to anyone who has traded with the person mentioned in the first article? Yes, it's silly of people to not sight current licenses, but hardly on par with someone knowingly breaking the terms of their permit.

    People knowing nothing about sellers/buyers and choosing to trade with them have only what they read or hear to go on when deciding to make a transaction. If you see a site full of people extolling the virtue of a member, read what the person has to say and see them constantly spruiking how they are always careful to comply with regulations, you're probably going to assume that everything is on the up and up. If people here don't know who it is that is operating without a license, or selling WC animals, or whatever else it is that this other person may have done then there is every chance they could be affected by it. Refusing to allow publicly accessible information to be passed among anyone who may make the mistake of dealing with these people, and may not otherwise come across it is frankly ridiculous. And lumping anyone who has a desire to know what is going on into the same torch-and-pitchfork-carrying category is patronising and insulting at best.

    Just to elaborate, I am speaking about information relating to cases where people have been taken to court or otherwise punished by EPA etc. for violating the terms of their licenses. Not about Jim Bob who buys a beardie from John Boy and it dies 2 months later or RI which may or may not have been present when John Boy sold it.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2010
  12. Waterrat

    Waterrat Almost Legendary

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    Dragon, the problem is, the cases that end up in the court are few and far between and in the meantime, there is a bunch of crooks doing their "business as usual" without anyone knowing about them. That part of the problem is unsolvable.
     
  13. ShadowDragon

    ShadowDragon Suspended Banned

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    I know Waterrat, and it's terrible shame. Which is precisely why it's better to know something like this when the information is available.
     
  14. Shadowdragon, you are doing exactly what most people do here - build a scenario of your own and hanging the guy for what he 'might' have done... I see it on forums all the time on these sorts of threads.

    I have no idea if he was selling w/c animals, but if you know he was, then and only then are your comments valid. I make it clear that I don't condone, or in any way support what he did, but I believe any critic should stick to the known facts.

    As Michael says, there are lots of unscrupulous people out there making a buck out of illegally trading in wildlife, and it is sometimes difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff when dealing with herp people. There are also some who simply love reptiles and just can't help themselves when they see something interesting on the road. If they collect it, they break the law... if they then sell it, they are guilty of a far worse ethical crime in my opinion, and should suffer the consequences. Your own case which you have mentioned sounds interesting. In my experience, when enquiring about potential suppliers of reptiles, I have always found that those who dealt with them previously are only too willing to offer advice about their experiences, whether good or bad.

    ShadowDragon, I have no objection to the information about this person being published here, it is of interest to most herpers (even me), all I suggested was that it be seen for what it is and left at that. What I dislike (and there is nothing I can do about it) is the lynch-mob mentality that is ready to build fantastic scenarios of raping and pillaging and profitting where none may exist. I was on the receiving end of such a scenario recently, and the thread had gone to 4-5 pages in a couple of hours before I even knew about it. The original complainant had a legitimate concern, which was easily fixed, but the venom flowing from the peanut gallery as they knitted and waited for the guillotine to fall would put a Coastal Taipan to shame. There are a lot of people here for entertainment - and they don't mind if it's at another's expense. I doubt you will find one well-experienced herper on these hanging juries - they've been through it all themselves...

    Jamie.
     
  15. ShadowDragon

    ShadowDragon Suspended Banned

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    Jamie,

    Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear. In QLD you are held liable if you buy from or sell to an unlicensed person. So no, it's not a fantastic built up scenario at all. It's plain fact. The demonstrator who was unlicensed sold animals all through that year and a half. Given that people have been dealt with harshly before for selling while being unlicensed unknowingly for only one week, it is not a stretch to point out that anyone who dealt with him will be looked at. So my comments are valid, as they relate to the consequences for people dealing with keepers who sell unlicensed.

    I have been keeping for some time myself, and have been through licensing issues myself before. Namely being given a mark on my record and a warning that if I do one more thing wrong I will have my animals taken. Why? Because I didn't sight a current licens from someone I bought animals from, I knew he had applied for a license and thought it had been put through when for whatever reason it hadn't. That was my mistake, and a stupid one, a simple phone call to ensure that the license was processed would have saved me grief. That person being unlicensed was an actual mix up, it was clear to them and Parks quite quickly that he was unlicensed. He still got hammered. At the end of the day, it may be that some miracle occurs and the people who bought from the demonstrator aren't subject to any warnings, fines or other. For their sake I hope so. But this has been enforced in the past.

    You're right, there are lynch mobs galore, in this and any hobby. But that's not to say that anyone who points out what will (not can, will) happen is automatically reacting hysterically.

    Also, as I said previously, I am NOT referring to issues between keepers. I am referring to people being dealt with by DEC/EPA or whatever other organisation where the information has been published.
     
  16. Just another note SD, I take on board what you say about zealous 'authorities'... I came from WA where the fear factor is somewhat similar (hence my cynicism). The persecution of legitimate reptile keepers by government officials is an almost Australia-wide phenomenon, the bullish behaviour of some wildlife officers is probably balanced by the bad behaviour of those who illegally exploit fauna.

    Noone seems to be able to find out to what use our meticulously kept records are put, each and every state wants to keep track of every reptile and frog from birth/capture to death. It's a bizarre scenario really, as the number of animals bred in captivity increases exponentially - records getting more & more complex to keep, the insistence on record keeping becoming more shrill, penalties for mistakes or omissions (even legit ones) getting stiffer & stiffer.

    It will reach a breaking point sooner or later...

    J
     
  17. Ahhh... I think I've not seen the article you mention, so I take your point. The one I saw made no reference to selling illegally...

    Unreasonble bullying and threats from the 'authorities' are things that need to be addressed in the 21st century environment however.

    J
     
  18. Boney

    Boney Very Well-Known Member

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    just wanted to know if taking animals from the wild then breeding them and then profiting from the offspring . how does that rank as far as exploiting fauna to your advantage .
     
  19. ShadowDragon

    ShadowDragon Suspended Banned

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    The one here made no reference to selling illegally either, it was in fact petty vague about what they were investigating other than the license expiry, just mention of investigating the validity of the displays and the animals kept under the license. However, once you've dealt with QPWS for more than two seconds, you get to know what they're going to go after. Demonstrator permits here cover not only the demonstrations themselves, but animals are also bought and sold under them. It's possible to have a recreational permit concurrently, but if you want to display certain animals they have to be on the demonstrator permit. This means, as previously mentioned, any transactions occurring under this permit are subject to scrutiny now.

    Over zealous QPWS (or other) employees have before and always will be a problem, like any workplace the are made up of people, and people are flawed critters. I recall one particular nit-picker who made a career out of raiding and confiscating collections on the slightest suspicion (of impropriety, he also had one of the most impresseive collections in North QLD.

    Be that as it may, all who deal with the system regularly know how it works, unfair or not. It's not that difficult to work with it, this isn't a case of someone pushing the boundaries of an unfair law. What the case the Devil is referring to is about, I have no idea. I haven't seen anything about it online and it was all done and dusted before I got my hands on any out of state papers.
     
  20. CodeRed

    CodeRed Very Well-Known Member

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    If every reptile keeper was haulled over the coals for catching the odd snake or two then 80% of the more "respected" keepers would find themselves in hot water. Like it or not, the keeping of illegally wild caught animals is rampant throughout this community.
     
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