Buying Poss Hets... Worth It?

Discussion in 'General Reptile Discussion' started by kittycat17, May 4, 2017.

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  1. Scutellatus

    Scutellatus Well-Known Member

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    Leucistic is a perfect example of the mutations that can occur from inbreeding. As with all animals it takes quite a few generations for the mutations to become evident.
     
  2. kittycat17

    kittycat17 Well-Known Member

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    Pretty sure there was a gentleman who last I heard had line bred 11 generations with no ill effects
    I can't remember where I read that though


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  3. Scutellatus

    Scutellatus Well-Known Member

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    This statement is from Jan Eric Engell the founder of the Jag gene pool.
    "I believe the only way to produce a healthy leucistic specimen
    is to dilute the Jaguar bloodline by several generations and then breed
    two completely unrelated Jaguars to each other".
    Some breeders may get lucky and never have any problems. In my opinion most people that line breed are in it more for than money and the 'look at what I bred' factor than anything else.
     
  4. Yellowtail

    Yellowtail Well-Known Member

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    My line of julattens started with 4 adults sourced from 3 different owners but the all traced back to Tremain Anderson and wild caught animals from the Julatten area where they get the name. It is possible one or more of the founder snakes was axanthic or het for as it is unlikely the black and white snakes from such a small area just evolved that way while other jungles from surrounding areas are classic colours. Pinefamily is right, snakes are not like mammals, they lay large numbers of eggs and the young stay in a small area and regularly mate with siblings and cousins so they become very inbred without problems. Rough scaled pythons are confined to very small areas and must be very inbred and what about populations of snakes on small islands, some of these have been extensively studied and are very healthy, probably evolving their distinctive characteristics over millions of years.
    I have line bred the Julattens for many generations mostly selecting for patterns and all have been healthy unlike breeding animals with genetic faults like jags where a percentage of the offspring are defective to the point of having to be euthanised. I have line bred albino Darwins for over 10 years starting with 6 animals bred by Southern Cross, again selecting for colours but I have outcrossed those with natural Darwins to develop colours and fluro without any health problems.
     
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  5. Yellowtail

    Yellowtail Well-Known Member

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    And Scutellatus if I was doing it "for the money" I would have outcrossed to prove an axanthic line rather than just line breeding to produce nice looking pythons. I don't breed jags because I would be heartbroken to have to euthanise an animal I bred. Line breeding reptiles is only duplicating what they naturally do in isolated areas, on islands etc resulting in a distinctive appearance.
     
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  6. Scutellatus

    Scutellatus Well-Known Member

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    Not having a go at you Yellowtail but at the end of the day the 'money' factor has to be a part of it. To spend thousands of dollars on the Julatten line and most probably tens of thousands on the albino line in the first place says to me money had to be a factor. You aren't just buying those animals for the pleasure of keeping them and hoping to recover your outlay with a couple of pairings. It reminds me of the boom in Green Tree Pythons when pairs were going for upwards of $40,000 for two hatchlings.
     
  7. kittycat17

    kittycat17 Well-Known Member

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    Hahahaa some of us do actually keep for the love of keeping animals!! I have coastals lol I've probably wasted so much money on raising and breeding them but do I care? Nope I love keeping and breeding them, developing my own line of distinct animals
    And trading animals with friends, which I've done so this season and it has been lovely seeing the excited looks on there faces knowing I'm trusting them with one of my 'babies' because that's how I see them
    There my pets as much as my cats are


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  8. Scutellatus

    Scutellatus Well-Known Member

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    Breeding coastals is a little different to breeding the high end animals Kittycat. You go into breeding coastals not expecting to make big dollars. Although I do remember your thread where you weren't happy with the price you could sell them for.
    At the end of the day most people that buy the high end animals for the intention of breeding do so as an investment and expect a return on that investment. Keep in mind I am not saying that is a bad thing. The more people that do it, the cheaper the animal eventually becomes.
     
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  9. kittycat17

    kittycat17 Well-Known Member

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    My thread on price was more a broad spectrum disappointment that pure animals where going for in general
    But yes I do understand your point


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  10. Yellowtail

    Yellowtail Well-Known Member

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    It costs a lot of money to maintain a large collection in large enclosures (if it was a business they would be in tubs) and without some income from selling albinos I could not afford it. I only sell 8 - 10 from one clutch of julattens each season when I could be breeding hundreds.
    I have had several GTP's for years and not sold any and I certainly don't keep my Diamonds, Roughys and SW Carpets for the money.
     
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  11. Nero Egernia

    Nero Egernia Subscriber Subscriber

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    Ack, apologies again if I devolve into a ranting mess. Probably shouldn't comment on these types of topics but I feel very strongly towards them.

    I have to agree with Scutellatus's statement. Just about every Tom, Dick, and Harry are "line-breeding" their reptiles simply for the chance to create something different that will fetch a higher price. But Yellowtail's right, inbreeding can be common in certain wild populations. If a weak specimen is produced from such a pairing, however, mother nature has no qualms snuffing it out. People on the other hand tend to horde such things. Even using the weak animal extensively in their breeding projects because in many cases that particular specimen is the most unusual. This is when line-breeding becomes a problem. That, and when people refuse to out-cross every now and then.

    I call it designer breeding when people breed explicitly for the purpose of enhancing or creating a particular trait specifically to appeal to the masses. It doesn't have to be restricted to breeding hybrids. I would also include it to people that breed animals of two distinct localities together. I remember on Facebook where someone was inquiring what cool and weird colours they could produce by breeding two locality specific lizards together, two distinctly different animals of which I would not be surprised if they were allocated subspecies status sometime in the future. It makes me wonder - why? Both lizards are equally beautiful in their own right so why would you want to change it? Although I won't deny that some selectively bred animals are stunning.

    But it seems these days that more and more people are selectively breeding for some trait or another in their all important goal to prove that they can do better than mother nature. That does seem to be the common practice these days in the reptile keeping hobby - paint-jobs, paint-jobs, paint-jobs, developing distinct lines like pedigreed dogs etc. etc. Sometimes I wonder if I even follow the same hobby. I don't really care much for the paint jobs and the hets for this and hets for that, I'm interested in their natural forms and behaviours. Why don't we keep the practice of breeding extensively line-bred bizarre mutant creatures far removed from their wild ancestors to dogs for goodness sake? As that's where I see the hobby is going.
     
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  12. pinefamily

    pinefamily Subscriber Subscriber

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    There was a second albino found which was called White Phoenix, however you are right that most albinos in captivity come from the Blondie line.
     
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  13. pinefamily

    pinefamily Subscriber Subscriber

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    Not everyone gets an albino or a GTP (as examples) to breed. We have a fair collection of reptiles (actually downsized when we moved), and have no interest in breeding our albinos. We have them for their natural beauty, as we do our other reptiles. The closest thing we have to a "designer" reptile is a leatherback beardie. I actually picked it out for its patterning and colours before I realized it was a leatherback.
     
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  14. Yellowtail

    Yellowtail Well-Known Member

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    Someone here may know better? I heard from good authority that White Phoenix was in fact a blondie albino and a "creation" to have a different line to market. The python was conveniently lost in a fire just before it was to be DNA tested.
    Getting back to the original theme some of my best albinos have come from hets when I have outcrossed with naturals to introduce colours, fluro and patterns to my lines.
    The het girl in photo just taken produces albinos with beautiful subtle colours. IMG_5230.jpg
     
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  15. pinefamily

    pinefamily Subscriber Subscriber

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    That's interesting, Yellowtail. The last time there was discussion about Blondie etc. I'm pretty sure someone mentioned there had been a third one found in the wild, but can't be sure.
     
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  16. Sheldoncooper

    Sheldoncooper Well-Known Member

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    I couldn't agree more
    Genetically making animals weaker for a quick buck thats what it seems to be about. I guess people aren't deliberately trying to get weak genetics however playing with mother nature and getting animals that might look different can sometimes be detrimental to the animal.
    Silkbacks / trans and dunners are perfect examples in beardies. These traits are dominant genes and not one of them has a positive effect on the animal. There all genes that are negative genes. Tell me a positive trait in a silkback ? A reptile that can't handle uv rays very well and can't shed properly. The dunner gene is the same they have to be out crossed to try and get them to a healthy state. $2 to 3k for a silkback 4 to 5 years ago, what would u pay for one now ? $200 if your lucky and i wouldn't take it anyway. The animal can't tell u how its feeling and I'm guessing a silkback isn't feeling the same as a bearded in its natural state. Do your research and think before u buy.

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  17. Pauls_Pythons

    Pauls_Pythons Power Seller Power Seller

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    My apologies before I start this rant but I keep bypassing this thread since it started bagging breeders and talking genetics and money but I can't walk past it anymore.
    Line breeding and cross breeding are very different. Cross breeding is banned in some states and should be actively banned across the country in my opinion. Many of the cross breeds are done without any thought and often because some young 'wanna be a breeder' thinks he will make his first 1m from this 'unique' pairing.

    Line breeding is done globally and tbh in Australia we have a better gene pool on our natives than they have in the US or Europe so it's actually less of a problem here. In order to protect animals in the wild line breeding becomes the norm unless you want every Tom, Dick and Harry out in the outback picking up animals to add to their own gene pool. (Big enough problem as it is without adding to it)
    Yes some of the morphs that have/are being deliberately produced may be pushing the boundaries of logic/common sense but it happens in everything humans get involved in. Please remember that not all breeders are trying to breed something that is likely to be akin to the next silkback or translucent beardy as mentioned above.

    Now, the money aspect..........Well I'm a breeder.......(shoot me now). Let me say that if I put in as much time and effort into anything else in the world as I do my reptiles I would make a **** load more money than I do out of breeding. So why do I breed, because it gives me a way to offset the cost of keeping/maintaining my collection while also having the pleasure of being involved in what these animals do in nature. I get to give back to the reptile community while I continue to learn heaps from my animals during this time. (Learning's that I am happy to use to try and help the next generation of herpers along the way)
    I have sold plenty of animals at a loss because they have gone to someone who loves reptiles but can't afford the price on them. I'm working full time, (still at my age and after more than 30 years of being involved in reptiles so someone please explain to me why I can't afford to retire yet), so I don't need to make a living from breeding so its not all about the money and no way am I ever going to retire on the pittance that my hobby earns. (Without any breeders where would you get your next reptile fix?)

    On a final note....Jags. How many of those on this site who jump in and have a go at the breeders keep or have kept jags? How can you support a cause against breeders then buy a sub standard animal with neurological problems?
    If you do your research you will find that some states have bans against the breeding of morphs but its peoples hunger to 'OWN' the next special thing that drives the industry. Some states are active against cross breeds such as SA but it won't stop until the laws are fully enforced with clear boundaries across the country or the people out there stop buying some of the ridiculous crosses that are put together with no thought.

    I feel much better for that so I'll get off my soapbox now.
     
  18. Yellowtail

    Yellowtail Well-Known Member

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    Could not have expressed it better
     
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  19. BredliFreak

    BredliFreak Well-Known Member

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    It's a similar thing with dogs, I imagine. Look at all the poodles and pugs and small dogs, or pitbulls etc., they all are prone to horrible diseases and should be considered disfigured and genetically retarded, yet every absent minded moron has a pug or poodle. Not trying to call anyone out but if you own these animals you are encouraging an what would be equivalent to neuro jags. On a side note, would you say the albino mutation would be similar, as it makes the skin cells and eyes more sensitive and weaker?
     
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  20. cement

    cement Subscriber Subscriber APS Veteran

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    Hmmm, interesting.
    Its not that similar to dogs.... because... and there are now inherent problems with things like jags because....
    Nature and time.

    Pythons have been in the country for a million years. They have evolved to be (as mentioned) able to inbreed. Great example though not python, is the island tigers.
    They evolved immunity ( to some degree) against native vens.
    But, they get hammered by cat and dog bite..... They have not evolved to be able to withstand the bacteria from these recently introduced species.

    Dogs are a recent invention by man. They have not had the evolutionary time to withstand a reduced gene pool, neither have humans. Jags are the same. there is no evolutionary time frame for jags or any other crossed species of snake to be able to be free of defect. Jags are not a natural evolution, and breeders of these animals have no respect for that.
     
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