Inbreeding?

[gman78]

All US research points to no problems.
Very different to mammals

 

[hornet]

From everything I've researched and all the reputable and highly experienced breeders I've spoken to, reptiles can be safely inbred directly to siblings or parents for up to 4 generations. After 4 generations new blood has to be brought into the mix.

I don't have a problem with it. Inbreeding is the best way to strengthen a specific trait and once this is is strengthened it can be mixed into another line with a similar trait.

safely inbred to 4 generations? I dont know where you got your info from i think i have heard 9gen inbred and no probs. The reason is reptiles are an ancient group of animals and therefore have much more stable genetic makeup and are less likley to have problems related to inbreeding than mammals

 

[andyscott]

Well in that case, havnt they already been inbred 4 times?
Someone got lucky and got an albino Olive in their clutch.
That animal was then bred with standard animals.
Those hatchlings were inbred to see which ones had the het genes,
Then those hatchlings were inbred again.
Til now where Albino to Albino Olives are being inbred to get 100% Albino clutches.

The same goes for the Albino Darwins.

I dont think anyone will introduce a new bloodlines.
If someone has an albino or a het, they wont breed it with anything without the genes, as they wont get anything but possable hets and its back to the drawing board.
So IMO these animals will be inbred for years to come.

 

[disasterpiece7.0]

I study genetics at uni. What makes you think that reptiles are any different to mammals in the transmission of genetic disease? The diseases themselves will be different (though I would imagine many of them could be similar in all vertebrates as they have the same organ systems), and as I said above, there's no way of knowing what they are until they show up. I can't find any studies of genetic disease in reptiles, assumedly because unlike dogs, cats, goldfish and humans, they haven't been observed inbreeding for long enough for anyone to do good research on it.

Fair call. I'm certainly not disagreeing with you that there probably are genetic diseases in reptiles, nor that inbreeding may cause them to affect more animals then if each generation was unrelated. However, in the experience of many breeders that use inbreeding (as stated above, in the US up to 6 or 7 gens) there has been no ill effects.

This could be interpreted in many ways. But from my personal point of view, there seems to be some major differences between the affects of inbreeding on reptiles then on mammals.

As for diseases, to my knowledge there doesn't seem to be any obvious ones that are made any worse by inbreeding. Certainly if I'm wrong here me please correct me. I think the lack of knowledge has more to do with the lack of diseases rather then a lack of research. Many breeders use inbreeding and I'm sure that if problems occurred they would inform the rest of the herping world to these problems and it would be investigated further.

I probably won't take inbreeding to a fourth generation. There is certainly enough separate lines and localities for specific snakes that I'll be breeding in the next few years, so I'm not too concerned.

 

[disasterpiece7.0]

safely inbred to 4 generations? I dont know where you got your info from i think i have heard 9gen inbred and no probs.

Then technically I'm not wrong... I didn't say you couldn't do more. This is just info I've collected from experienced breeders that I know and seemingly reliable information found on the net, rather then what I heard on a forum. I'm not saying a forum isn't a great source of information, just there is alot of people throwing round information that may not be 100% accurate on internet forums.

 

[junglepython2]

If the founding stock is healthy I can't see a problem with inbreeding it has been done for many many generations with no real problems.

Plus what's the big problem of recessive alleles coming out?? If they are detrimental the individual dies and the incidence in the population decreases. Plus by inbreeding you have much more chance of producing advantageous recessive mutations (at least for us) like albinism.

 

[Jungle_Freak]

Kathryn
Just buy yourself reptile genetics books
theres been plenty of work done on reptile genetics
cheers
Roger

 

[TWENTY B]

at least 7 gen's of brother sister pairing has already been done with no known ill effect.
I like many others will eventually be pairing the same. But i also plan on adding a fresh flood line to it in the future.

 

[Ramsayi]

Well in that case, havnt they already been inbred 4 times?
Someone got lucky and got an albino Olive in their clutch.
That animal was then bred with standard animals.
Those hatchlings were inbred to see which ones had the het genes,
Then those hatchlings were inbred again.
Til now where Albino to Albino Olives are being inbred to get 100% Albino clutches.

The same goes for the Albino Darwins.

I dont think anyone will introduce a new bloodlines.
If someone has an albino or a het, they wont breed it with anything without the genes, as they wont get anything but possable hets and its back to the drawing board.
So IMO these animals will be inbred for years to come.

Not too sure about that.I used an albino male darwin over unrelated females to produce hets in 2006.
As far as inbreeding goes I have been line breeding macs for a while now with some great results and with no problems to date.

 

[Kathryn_]

I think the lack of knowledge has more to do with the lack of diseases rather then a lack of research.

See, I just wouldn't be comfortable making a statement like that. It's possible that at present there are no significant genetic diseases in reptiles, but I think it's highly unlikely. The difference is that dogs, cats and fish have been selectively inbred for thousands of years, so we know about the problems that occur. We haven't been messing with reptiles long enough to find out yet, and as I said to ALK, it's equally possible that sick animals aren't recognised, and are just assumed to be bad feeders or sterile eggs.

 

[CodeRed]

Kathyrn,
You're omitting the fact that breeders select their stock from all their available offspring. Animals that are identified as carrying genetic diseases will be culled or at least not bred from. Even in the case where a possible genetic disease may not show up until later in life will be picked up by the breeder as these animals are kept well into adulthood. Lineages carrying genetic diseases become extinct by the hand of the breeder.

 

[Kathryn_]

CodeRed: What you're saying only applies to dominant characteristics and animals that are homozygous for recessive traits. Of course nobody would breed from one of those animals, but the fact is most genetic diseases are recessive conditions that can hide for generations, or show up again and again and again in the same lineages without homozygous animals being bred to one another. The point is that you don't know you've bred two heterozygous animals until the offspring hatch and they're sick, and if like people are saying, you've inbred siblings four or six or eight times, there could now be dozens or even hundreds of hetrozygous animals in existence, in the hands of people who don't know about the disease allele until they breed that animal to another het, possibly siblings or cousins or second-cousins of their first animal, without being aware of that, and produce more messed up offpspring.

 

[CodeRed]

You missed the point. The breeder would eventually discover this, either through his own animals or from someone who has purchased his animals.

In any case this does not appear to happen in reptiles. Some of the old time breeder have 8th and 9th generation animals that show no genetic problems (eg blond mac and jungle lineages).

 

[PimmsPythons]

inbreeding has very little effect on reptiles.you will find that most wild reptiles,especially pythons,are a product of inbreeding. they tend not to stray from their home territory so end up breeding with their relatives.that is why we find big populations surviving well on small islands, for example, chapple island tiger snakes,komodo dragons, galapagos tortises,lava lizards, galapagos land iguanas,even populations of pythons on islands off north queensland and dozens through indonesia,etc,etc.when i visited the Darwin center ,on the galapagos,their scientists have been inbreeding their tortises from individual islands to save some from extinction with no ill effects.inbreeding healthy reptiles can also be a way to keep bad traits and genes out of the line.

 

[Perko]

I think BIGGUY has got 10th gen Blond macs!!!

 

[CodeRed]

I think BIGGUY has got 10th gen Blond macs!!!

Yeap, sure does.

 

[cris]

CodeRed: Of course nobody would breed from an animal with an obvious genetic disease, but the fact is most genetic diseases are recessive conditions that can hide for generations, or show up again and again and again in the same lineages without homozygous animals being bred to one another. The point is that you don't know you've bred two hetrozygous animals until the offspring hatch and they're sick, and if like people are saying, you've inbred siblings four or six or eight times, there could now be dozens or even hundreds of hetrozygous animals in existence, in the hands of people who don't know about the disease allele until they breed that animal to another het, possibly siblings or cousins or second-cousins of their first animal, without being aware of that, and produce more messed up offpspring.

This scenario can happen with any sort of breeding, sure inbreeding will bring out recessive phenotypes which can either mean reptile food if it is bad, a perfectly fit specimen or possibly a massive amount of cash if it looks abnormal and can still survive. Once they show up they can be selected for or against as the breeder chooses. Ultimately though you can only eliminate recessive problems through inbreeding(i think?).

 

[luke.r.s]

ive seen a journal article which mentions 20 generations with no detectable inbreeding problems (in the states). yes inbreeding will narrow genetics and possibly bring up recessive conditions (some wanted). although if no recessive faults are present in the original parent population then none should come up with inbreeding unless due to a spontanious mutation.
-L

 

[Kathryn_]

Once they show up they can be selected for or against as the breeder chooses.

Only if the breeder retains all the offspring, which clearly doesn't happen very often and certainly won't in the case of intentional inbreeding for particular traits. Once they're out of the breeder's hands, there's no knowing how many times they'll be bred, or inbred, and no way of controlling that unless the breeder takes the financial risk of calling everyone they've sold animals to over the years and telling those people not to breed them, just in case. Which, if the responses to this thread are any indication, most people would ignore anyway

All of these anecdotal examples of people who have inbred without issue are great, and I'm, very glad that none of those breeders have had problems and that those animals have all been happy and healthy. But it's kind of like saying "I know loads of people who get roaring drunk and drive around at 150kph and they've never crashed!" Doesn't mean nobody's ever going to get wrapped around a tree, and it's a risk that I personally don't feel is worth taking, even for the obviously very large sums of money involved.

 

[Ramsayi]

Only if the breeder retains all the offspring, which clearly doesn't happen very often and certainly won't in the case of intentional inbreeding for particular traits. Once they're out of the breeder's hands, there's no knowing how many times they'll be bred, or inbred, and no way of controlling that unless the breeder takes the financial risk of calling everyone they've sold animals to over the years and telling those people not to breed them, just in case. Which, if the responses to this thread are any indication, most people would ignore anyway

All of these anecdotal examples of people who have inbred without issue are great, and I'm, very glad that none of those breeders have had problems and that those animals have all been happy and healthy. But it's kind of like saying "I know loads of people who get roaring drunk and drive around at 150kph and they've never crashed!" Doesn't mean nobody's ever going to get wrapped around a tree, and it's a risk that I personally don't feel is worth taking, even for the obviously very large sums of money involved.

You seem to be so convinced that it is a problem.A few of us have stated,some by personal experience that to date we have seen no detectable problems.Since you seem to be so insistant that it is a problem how about you show us some examples of problems caused by line breeding reptiles.