Inbreeding?

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TB maybe you are right but given that they are kept by some of the most experienced keepers in the country the numbers are'nt there. Look at Snake Ranch with one of the biggest collections of the oldest albino olive genetics in Australia and to date, they only manage to produce a few white snakes a year.
 
I still belive its to do with the way people keep them. simple as that.
Wasnt their excuse last season, that the females were too fat.?. Which would of been a major part of the problem imo.
Most people keep olives way to fat and imo is half the reason they have trouble breeding them.
Youve seen the way i keep my snakes, and none of them are anywhere near what you would call fat, and everything that i want to breed, breeds every year including olives, albino or normal.

Besides look at normal olives, they have been kept in captivity for a few decades in oz. Yet even now there seem to ever only be a handfull of clutches produced every year, and even less that are bred consistantly.
Once again, imo its all to do with the way they are kept.
 
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Yeah I suppose if you do the wrong thing for 20 years its still the wrong thing. Perhaps experience isn't all its made out to be.
 
Yes, you need to be able to identify defective lines to guarrantee that it will be culled. Eventually if the disease is signifcant you will be able to identify any genetic carriers.



Thats a shame coz then you will miss out on some of the best lines of jungles, blonde macs, albinos, roughies and probably a few more too.

Hopefully one day. If passing judgement on whether i will or wont buy animal from the "best" lines because it is or isnt inbred becomes the main issue i face, as oppose to not having the space or money, then id be stoked.:D
 
Oh, but you are knowingly doing so, by continually line beeding animals for a certain trait when you know that the chance of a defect increases with every incestuous breeding you do.

Obviously it's not the visually defective animals which are profitable but the apparently healthy siblings which have the desired trait but which almost certainly carry defective genes as well.

I still haven't seen any evidence showing that inbreeding in reptiles is a major problem.

And regarding the second point, healthy animals which are not inbred are just as likely to carry a hidden recessive allele if not more so then a line bred animal, so can't see how that is at all relevant
 
I still haven't seen any evidence showing that inbreeding in reptiles is a major problem.

A lack of evidence is not a lack of problems.

How many people keep track of, and are willing to admit to, high mortality rates in their highly inbred lines?
 
Nagraj, breeders might not want to admit problems, but their customers would make it known pretty quickly if a lineage was sub-standard in any way.
 
I've studied at uni, I have a major in genetics, I've been breeding reptiles over well over 10 years, I've visited some of the biggest and best snake breeding facilities in the world. I don't believe inbreeding in snakes is a big concern in terms of their health while in captivity. There are countless cases of snakes being inbred for many generations producing no observable problems.

There are some cases of inbreeding causing problems; blindness in the geckoes mentioned, Jaguar Carpets carry a lethal recessive allele (quite likely the one which causes the jaguar trait), and a few others. In those cases, the situation is very simple and avoiding it is not a problem.

There are very few documented cases of inbreeding depression in wild reptiles, but it is known in Cunningham's Skinks - a species highly unusual in its breeding, in that they will sometimes actually prefer not to reproduce rather than reproduce with a close relative. The fact that they have such incredibly unusual behaviour among reptiles and are one of the few species with inbreeding problems speaks volumes; it is strong evidence that it isn't much of an issue for other species.

Inbreeding depression was observed in the Vipers as mentioned. This is a classic study of inbreeding depression, and a very interesting one. My studies in genetics (including having this viper example being used in courses I've taken, and one I've been examined on multiple times), and my background in herpetoculture lead me to be almost certain that if those wild vipers had been brought into captivity they would have been perfectly healthy and bred without any troubles at all. In the benign conditions of captivity, inbreeding depression is often not observable or important....

As we know, rats and mice (mammals by the way) have been inbred for countless generations and are perfectly happy and healthy in captivity, but release them into the wild and unless they're lucky enough to find a nice place to live near human dwellings, they will drop dead quickly. They have retained everything required to thrive in captivity, but have lost abilities essential in the wild.

To give hypothetical examples, let's say that most of a population had the ability to resist a type of tick often occuring in the wild. We established a population in captivity and by chance one of the founding animals was heterozygous for a fault which made them highly vulnerable to the tick, and by chance the whole captive population ended up losing the resistance. We'd never know, we'd never care, but release those snakes and bang, they're all going to die. This same principle applies to countless traits (cold resistance, toxin resistance, ability to digest certain animals, ability to recognise certain prey, ability to avoid predators, I could list thousands), and when you remove the selective pressures of the wild, some of these will be lost (they'll actually be lost whether or not you inbreed, but they'll be lost more quickly if you do). To our snakes in captivity it just doesn't matter. Yes, it does mean that multigeneration captive snakes will often be very poorly suited to release, which is actually probably a very good thing since they are almost certainly not going to be needed for release and many will accidentally escape. What I've described here are Mendelian traits. Similar situations exist with multigenic and complex traits, but describing them would take far longer than a page or so, and it wouldn't be understandable by most reptile forum users (and if anyone could understand it they'd already have studied complex genetics anyway!).

Kathryn: it's cute that you're studying genetics and want to teach us all about what you've learned, but what they teach you in first and second year university genetics are generalised principles which mainly apply to mammals (and sometimes they'll cover plants too). As you'll learn if you continue studying genetics, things are extrememly complicated in the world of genetics. There is an exception to every rule and there are cases where just about everything imaginable happens. For reasons geneticists don't yet understand, reptiles are genetically far more robust than mammals and birds. The types of hybrids possible with reptiles (Woma x Ball for example) would be genetically unthinkable in a mammal context. We have parthenogenetic reptiles, but mammals are genetically incapable of such a thing. Mammals have things like genetic imprinting to deal with, which reptiles do not. Some of the principles you're learning apply very well to reptiles, but some do not. As you learn more you'll start to learn how to tell the difference, but keep in mind that even the best geneticists get completely thrown by reptiles if they're unfamiliar with them. Theory is great to use as a guide, but never let vague theory get in the way of a mountain of demonstrable evidence.

Good luck with your studies though! It's great to see you applying what you've learned, and in time I hope you'll become one of the precious few learned geneticists in our ranks. If you'd ever like to talk genetics, get in touch :)
 
A lack of evidence is not a lack of problems.

How many people keep track of, and are willing to admit to, high mortality rates in their highly inbred lines?

That works both ways, there is no real evidence of the opposite so how is inbreeding knowingly producing defective animals like you implied in your previous post?
 
Inbreeding in captivity thrives because we protect our animals from the natural selection which occurs in the wild. In the wild if an animal gets sick it will more than likely die but in captivity we save it at all cost so it can breed ofspring which also may be suseptable to that disease. Poor hunters in the wild die but in captivity we catch there food for them and shove it down their throat if they wont eat ,so they have the opportunity to produce more non feeding snakes.
Whilst this applies to all captive bred animals it shields the negative effect of inbreeding in captivity more than in the wild.
 
I haven't read all the replies yet so sorry if I've repeated anything.

But if inbreeding would be an issue don't you think we'd see many deformities in the wild? 1 mother has lots of babies and those babies don't pack their bags and leave the country. 30 babies in the same location grow up to hang around and find the opposite sex and just keep on breeding. Perhaps you should catch some of these wild animals and do DNA tests on them. You'll probably find perfectly healthy genes and you have no idea to be able to judge whether it has bred with its family or not. They don't know any better and I guess they've been made to not need to know.
 
I haven't read all the replies yet so sorry if I've repeated anything.

But if inbreeding would be an issue don't you think we'd see many deformities in the wild? 1 mother has lots of babies and those babies don't pack their bags and leave the country. 30 babies in the same location grow up to hang around and find the opposite sex and just keep on breeding. Perhaps you should catch some of these wild animals and do DNA tests on them. You'll probably find perfectly healthy genes and you have no idea to be able to judge whether it has bred with its family or not. They don't know any better and I guess they've been made to not need to know.

keep in mind that there is usually a high mortality rate in the wild.
 
We have parthenogenetic reptiles, but mammals are genetically incapable of such a thing. Mammals have things like genetic imprinting to deal with, which reptiles do not.
Parthenogenesis is interesting, as is hermaphroditic reproduction, but not really relevant to inbreeding beyond that fact that obviously, the dear little self-cloning critters don't need to worry about it. They need to worry about environmental changes or diseases that could potentially wipe out an entire family due to the same issue: lack of genetic variation. Though an interesting factoid is that some species of geckos are capable of parthenogenesis and sexual reproduction, which gives them quite the advantage over the rest of us.

It's an interesting point you've made about the very fact that they're captive stocks protecting them from many potential problems caused by inbreeding - to be honest, that hadn't occurred to me. Inbreeding aside it's always concerned me that "bad feeders" that would die in the wild are kept, nurtured and sometimes bred by reptile keepers, though my girl is one of them. As you've rightly pointed out, if they're never released it doesn't matter, so I guess I'm just a (theoretical) elitist.

I'm honestly not convinced that five or ten gens sib-sib inbreeding wouldn't cause depression, particularly an increase in egg mortality, but again, a "stillborn" animal doesn't suffer so I suppose it's not an issue. In fact, the meticulous incubation and care captive eggs get could very well save enough that the survival rate's as high or higher than a wild clutch. I'd just really hate to see a serious metabolic disorder or something like that pop up in a bunch of captive, inbred reps when it could have been avoided.

And finally, give a girl a break on the condescension, your holy wiseness ;) I might be a pissed off undergrad with less knowledge and experience than you, but that doesn't mean there won't come a sad day when my concerns turn out to be well-founded.
 
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Kathryn: parthenogenesis was just one of the examples I used to point out that reptiles are genetically more robust than mammals; they're capable of stuff mammals are not. The effects of pathenogenesis are not relevant to anything which isn't parthenogenetic, but the fact that parthenogenesis is so widespread in reptiles says something. Indulge me, I can't think of any Australian facultative parthenogenetic geckoes of the top of my head.

Bad feeders being kept and bred concerns me too. I agree with you fully there. That, however, is a different issue and applies whether we're only ever breeding brother to sister or if we never inbreed at all.

You may not honestly be convinced, but hey, you're obviously a new kid on the block, and I honestly don't think your opinion is something I should replace my own with. Many of us have seen it in countless lines. Inbreeding depression doesn't work by suddenly throwing out nasty traits after a certain number of generations. If you get through a few generations without a problem, any problems which come up after that are going to be very subtle. If you've had no problems at all after a few generations, chances are you're not going to get any at all. If you get over 10 generations or so without a problem, you're almost certainly not going to have any issues (novel mutations aside).

Maybe we'll find a very rare case of inbreeding depression, hey, it wouldn't surprise me. If you breed millions of animals you're going to have a few problems here and there no matter what you do, and inbreeding in reptiles would probably come in at around number 1,000 on a priority-ranked list of health concerns. If such a case does pop up we can simply use some careful selective breeding to get around it.

If inbreeding is such an animal welfare concern, we should probably be kicking and screaming about the 100th generation inbred rodents we're using as feed!
 
You may not honestly be convinced, but hey, you're obviously a new kid on the block, and I honestly don't think your opinion is something I should replace my own with.
I'm certainly not arguing that you should. I also wasn't arguing that the particular lines that are already inbred are going to suffer, that would be irrational. I'm concerned that somewhere, eventually, someone's might start a line that will. That's all. I didn't actually think it was that complex or novel an idea, but most of the people who've responded seem to consider it tantamount heresy, so what say we leave it here.
 
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