Rats, Rabbits or Pigeons?

[Tristan.C]

Hey guys,
my adult coastal is getting just too big for one jumbo rat and the other day my rat breeder had mice and had to shut shop for a while...
so I went to the pet shop :cry: and bought myself a medium size rabbit, they robbed my $21.90 for a single rabbit and I nearly had a heart attack!!! The guy from the pet shop told me something about a "Black liver disease". He said that after rats get over the 300gm mark they can actually make your snake sick by giving them this disease and I thought he was out to rob me for some money. Just wondering if this is true or not? Also I have seen that somebody is selling pigeons as food and was wondering if the nutritional value of a pigeon is good... What do you guys feed your big snakes?
Sorry about the questions guys :L
Many Thanks,
Tristan

 

[Wilfred]

Rabbits all the way and yes the liver disease they do get buy I'm prittie sure it comes with age not with weight so I have heard I could be wrong pigeons I don't think that it would have anuf nutrition

 

[Skeptic]

All my snakes get quail. If one isn't enough, they get more I could be wrong, but I figure once it reaches the gut, what's the difference?

 

[Sdaji]

The large rat thing is a bit of a myth. I used to believe it was probably true, but if you do a nutritional analysis of a large old rat they're pretty comparable to a young one as long as they're still healthy.

Rabbits are good too though. Go with whatever is most affordable and is better quality. I'd rather use a better quality rat than a low quality rabbit, and vice versa. Given equal quality I'd go with whatever is cheaper or more convenient, there's really not that much in it.

Pigeons are fine too as long as they're being bred well. You'll probably find it difficult to find good quality pigeons at comparable prices, and a large pigeon will have a lot of feathers and empty space compared to a rat or rabbit which looks the same size. If they're cheap they're likely wild caught. I wouldn't use wild caught ones, but if I was I would just go grab them for free rather than pay for them. Sometimes you see cheap rabbits which are wild caught. Sometimes they're okay, but I've also heard of wild rabbits messing snakes up. Whatever you're going for I'd definitely suggest choosing captive bred. If you do find decent quality captive bred pigeons at a good price per weight, they'd be okay too.

 

[wokka]

I use rabbits because we breed them and its easier to feed say 15 one and a half kilo rabbits than to feed 40 odd rats, we do feed rats as well although they get a bit expensive compared to rabbits. Our 1.5 kilo rabbits sell for $20 each whereas ten 150 gram rats cost two or three times that, and are a lot more hassle. ( Before every pms me we only sell bulk not individual rabbits). I have read that too much fat can cause fatty liver disease but have also read of keepers who feed supposedly fatty food items without a problem. Without disecting and analysing the animals ,like Sadji does, i dont know how to determine the fat content of animals except to say that very old animals may carry more fat than young animals.I think of more importance is the feed the food item has been grown on. A lot of keepers use dog food to feed there rats. If you look at the analysis of dog food , there is lots of fat in it. It either goes straight through the rat or accumulates in the rat to be consumed later by a snake. Pidgeons would be much the same as quail or chooks, including lots of feathers. I doubt that many captive bred snakes are limited in performance by nutrition, but to be safe a variety of feed items should provide a variety of nutrition, and with this "shotgun" approach perhaps snare the secret herb and spices required to produce that special snake.

 

[andynic07]

I use rabbits because we breed them and its easier to feed say 15 one and a half kilo rabbits than to feed 40 odd rats, we do feed rats as well although they get a bit expensive compared to rabbits. Our 1.5 kilo rabbits sell for $20 each whereas ten 150 gram rats cost two or three times that, and are a lot more hassle. ( Before every pms me we only sell bulk not individual rabbits). I have read that too much fat can cause fatty liver disease but have also read of keepers who feed supposedly fatty food items without a problem. Without disecting and analysing the animals ,like Sadji does, i dont know how to determine the fat content of animals except to say that very old animals may carry more fat than young animals.I think of more importance is the feed the food item has beed grown on. A lot of keepers use dog food to feed there rats. If you look at the analysis of dog food , there is lots of fat in it. It either goes straight through the rat or accumulates in the rat to be consumed later by a snake. Pidgeons would be much the same as quail of chooks, including lots of feathers. I doubt that many captive bred snakes are limited in performance by nutrition, but to be safe a variety of feed items should provide a variety of nutrition, and with this "shotgun" approach perhaps snare the secret herb and spices required to produce that special snake.

Would you happen to have the fat content of the rat cubes you use please because if there is a big difference from the dog food I use I will swap over. I have just assumed that good quality dog food would not have a high fat content without really checking.

 

[wokka]

Would you happen to have the fat content of the rat cubes you use please because if there is a big difference from the dog food I use I will swap over. I have just assumed that good quality dog food would not have a high fat content without really checking.

We use boimare , which is horse feed but from the research I have done, and there's heaps available on google, it seems to be about the right nutritive values, including fat of 3.7%. Most dog foods range from 10-30%. I used to work in an abbatior and have seen the rubbish that goes into dog food. Of course weight gain will be higher if feeding a higher fat feed but you need to decide what you are aiming to produce. In humans we call it obesity. Rats preform much the same as humans which is why they use them for human research. What we dont know is the effect of fatty diets on reptiles, except from anecdotal reports.

 

[andynic07]

We use boimare , which is horse feed but from the research I have done, and there's heaps available on google, it seems to be about the right nutritive values, including fat of 3.7%. Most dog foods range from 10-30%. I used to work in an abbatior and have seen the rubbish that goes into dog food. Of course weight gain will be higher if feeding a higher fat feed but you need to decide what you are aiming to produce. In humans we call it obesity. Rats preform much the same as humans which is why they use them for human research. What we dont know is the effect of fatty diets on reptiles, except for anecdotal reports.

Wow I did not realise it was so high. I think that I will definaty change to an alternative just to be on the safe side.

 

[andynic07]

Just to back up what you said Wokka I just checked the percentage of the science diet brand that I use and it is 15.2%. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[wokka]

I think the moisture content of the food will also effect comparison as the non-fat component of the feed is padded out by water. If a 10% moisture feed is 5% fat and a 20% moisture feed is 5% fat then logically one would have double the fat if they were both compared at the same moisture content.

 

[-Peter]

The problem with pigeons is the band gets caught up in the bowel...

ps, Wilfred, I am having some problem accepting advice from a dog. I will attempt to adjust my thinking.

 

[Shotta]

All my snakes get quail. If one isn't enough, they get more I could be wrong, but I figure once it reaches the gut, what's the difference?

just wondering do you mean you feed your snakes solely on quails??

 

[Skeptic]

just wondering do you mean you feed your snakes solely on quails??

Yep. Quail are easy to breed, they grow VERY quickly, they have a higher protein to fat ratio than rodents, they don't stink, nothing ever turns down a quail and my wife won't let me breed rats I also think feeding two smaller items is better than feeding one bigger one, to a point. In my younger snakes, they get as big a quail as they can manage but for the bigger guys I'd prefer two adult quail over a large rat or rabbit. Large rodents tend to have a lot of fat on them.

Just the way I do things and it seems to work for me.

 

[dwmgalloway]

Do you do anything special to prepare quail before feeding ie remove the head? I bought some to try on my stimsons but i was a little worried about the beak and feet seemed a little to hard. I dunno im pretty new to snakes and probably a little paranoid lol.

 

[solar 17]

The Pigeons l sell are specifically captive bred for human consumption NOTHING wild caught here solar 17

 

[Skeptic]

Do you do anything special to prepare quail before feeding ie remove the head? I bought some to try on my stimsons but i was a little worried about the beak and feet seemed a little to hard. I dunno im pretty new to snakes and probably a little paranoid lol.

I normally debone and butterfly them. Sprinkle a little perri-perri on and bake in a moderate oven for around 30 minutes But for the snakes nothing Birds are a natural prey item for pythons

 

[wokka]

Do you do anything special to prepare quail before feeding ie remove the head? I bought some to try on my stimsons but i was a little worried about the beak and feet seemed a little to hard. I dunno im pretty new to snakes and probably a little paranoid lol.

I have had problem with spurs on chooks puncturing snakes on the way down so with large animals i will cut the legs off to save that risk. Sure they eat birds in the wild but snakes also die from eating the wrong food item in the wild. If you dont need to take the risk then why?

 

[Skeptic]

I have had problem with spurs on chooks puncturing snakes on the way down so with large animals i will cut the legs off to save that risk. Sure they eat birds in the wild but snakes also die from eating the wrong food item in the wild. If you dont need to take the risk then why?

Jap Quail don't have spurs. TBH I wasn't sure so I went outside and had a look. I get what you're saying though. Good to know

 

[Shotta]

Yep. Quail are easy to breed, they grow VERY quickly, they have a higher protein to fat ratio than rodents, they don't stink, nothing ever turns down a quail and my wife won't let me breed rats I also think feeding two smaller items is better than feeding one bigger one, to a point. In my younger snakes, they get as big a quail as they can manage but for the bigger guys I'd prefer two adult quail over a large rat or rabbit. Large rodents tend to have a lot of fat on them.

Just the way I do things and it seems to work for me.

do they have quicker growth rates? or are they the same?
and when you buy the eggs online could you grow them and breed them? or is it bad for quails of the same clutch to breed with each other?

 

[Skeptic]

do they have quicker growth rates? or are they the same?
and when you buy the eggs online could you grow them and breed them? or is it bad for quails of the same clutch to breed with each other?

Growth rates compared to rodents or between types of quail? I only keep Jap quail so can only speak about them. They take around 6 weeks to be fully grown and weigh in around 250g compared to around 20 weeks for rats? I can only go by what I've read as I haven't bred rats since I was 8 years old

If you buy them online you could certainly breed with them as you're unlikely to get a package full of closely related eggs. I wouldn't suggest breeding offspring back to parents though.

Whenever I buy online I go through Quail Kingdom. He's very professional and very well priced. He collects, packages and sends on the same day so you're guaranteed fresh eggs.