Advice needed...before I verbally abuse my vet

[OuZo]

Hey Wrasse, I agree. After looking in "What's Wrong with my Snake" I saw that a daily dose seemed very heavy :?. This was only yesterday though so unfortunately too late! I wasn't aware about injecting into the first half of the body...I think he gave his first one there but I don't remember him telling me that I should do so so I did it in the back half :shock:. I found it easier cos they don't like you holding their neck as much.

The twisting was to seal the hole made by the needle (I was told). He said their scales aren't like our skin and won't close up straight away and the Baytril can seep out. I did notice the resistance most of the time but there were those few I said that it just wasn't happening. I'm pretty confident it was sub-cut as I could see the needle under the scales and made sure I could each time...once again as shown by the vet. I just assumed that was normal lol. The resistance wasn't there until I twisted though...it seemed to make sense :shock:

 

[Guest]

Zoe, i only read quickly what wrasse has replied with, and if you are twisting the needle when withdrawing, you could be internally cutting the the muscle. The end of the needle is like a very small scalpel, (it pretty much is a tubular knife) and twisting it will pretty much be cutting the muscle with very small incisions. These could be getting slight infections, even if they are so close to the anti-biotic administration site. The reason the muscle seems to be releasing the needle, is cause it is causing pain, and the muscle relaxes to deal with the pain at the site. Id recommend not twisting the needle at all anymore, and just use a little more force to slide the needle out, the muscle will contract and therefore thats what holds in the injected fluid.

I learnt this while doing med training with taking bloods and giving sub cutaneous and intra muscular injections. We never twist the needle as it can and will cut the vein or the injection site, and makes stopping the bleeding a task in itself and leaves the patient at a greater risk of infection at the site.

Hope this makes sense, and hopefully its the answer so little nymph can use his strength where its needed most.

 

[shamous1]

This is why I chose HERPS for a hobby or should I say lifestyle and this is why I choose APS because everyone is willing to help everyone and offer advice. Sure you get a few ???????? but most have the reps best wishes at heart?

 

[BROWNS]

Yep zoester daily injections is too much for sure and the"What's Wrong With My Snake" book has been a lifesaver for me as there's no reptile vets around.I always check that book straight away if there's something wrong and it has helped every time.I had always thought the injections were to be given in the front 2/3 of the body"not sure where i got that from" but have always used either side of the spine in the muscle in the front half and try to put the injection in between the scales not directly through them which can be difficult with a small snaake.Have to agree with Wrasse and sherm twisting the needle is a no no and a vet giving that advice i'd be seeking a second opinion as well.

Wrasse thanks for those links,i'll forward them to my vet as i'm having a carpet treated with baytril at the moment for pneumonia in the middle of summer caused from too much humidity.Anyway as has been said baytril stings and the poor little bugger really flinches when injected and my vet also diluted the or added water to the baytril to help the stinging and i'd prefer to use something different if possible but most vets will automatically recommend baytril and was unaware it could also be given orally.This is for respiratory problems but i would have thought in zoes case with it being an infection etc a different antibiotic would have been used.I've re read above but couldn't find again what type of infection zoe said the baytril was for and surely a sensitivity test is easiily done if things aren't looking up by now?

Zoe with him having trouble shedding it's most likely related to him being crook but if you have him on newspaer etc and that's it i'd maybe up the humidity around shedding time and give him a good rock or branch to help him shed as if he just slid out when you grabbed his skin the first bad shed all he'd have need was something for the skin to catch on..just a thought.He's been through the wars and still going zoe i hope he comes good for you guys.

 

[Pike01]

Zoe, what was wrong with your snake?Where to give the injections depends on whats wrong with your snake.Reptiles are renal portal so if your snake has mouth rot or respitory infection you would give in the front half of the body if it had an infected tail or cloaca you would give it in the back half.I dont think those marks are injection sites, looks like damage from burn or handling while shedding.I have never personally had any trouble giving baytril S/C and would of thought it was the way to go for scale rot etc.

 

[instar]

Id say its almost certainly from the baytril injections sc, Some of you remember Monty, my first carpet, he had the same white patches and problems shedding in those areas from constant baytril inj under the skin rather than IM while being treated in two
occasions from months on end each time , for scepticemia that damaged his organs and later killed him.
His white patches were the same, they never went away with sheds, they were always 'albino' so to speak.
but they didnt spread either, so im convinced it was the baytril, those albino scales were injection sites.
Dont abuse your vet Zoey, just get a better one! We know you love Nymph, apart from that, hows he going?
P.s All the injection sites, about 9 from memory, were all in his lower half, toward the tail.
Some excellent Advice and Info goin on here, Cool!

 

[salebrosus]

Did you dilute the baytril with saline prior to injecting????

Simone.

 

[geckodan]

Nothing like a damn fine VET BASHING. Maybe we should SMS our friends and hit all the vets at once.
There are two aspects to this problem.1. Baytril is a registered product for use in dogs and cats and is still officially considered an off label use in reptiles BUT Bayer has personally provided information that allows for its legal use in these other species BUT this still means that the drug was not designed for use in these species and a SAFE subcut drug is a dog is not always a safe S?C drug in a snake.
2. Bayer does provide a product warning in its literature suggesting that with repeated subcutaneous injection in reptiles that depigmentation (sometimes permanent, may occur at the injection site. This does not however appear on the packing slip because of the off label usage. A percentage of these resolve at the next shed, some fade after several sheds, some remain with pale patches. These are NOT patches of necrosis, just pigment loss as the pH of baytril injection has damaged the pigment cells. I prefer to give Baytril shallow IM for that reason. You have been unlucky. I've only seen it twice in 10 years. It is unlikely to cause any other dramas other than the aesthetic ones BUT your snake is NOT DEAD. Surely , that was worth a couple of white spots.

 

[OuZo]

Nothing like a damn fine VET BASHING. Maybe we should SMS our friends and hit all the vets at once.

Sorry Danny, but I did apologise for the topic title in my pm to you. But thanks for your info. I'm not concerned about a few depigmented patches, god knows that's the least of his problems. I'd be concerned if the flesh/scales were damaged/dying/painful but if it's just lack of pigment then I'm not too worried. I'm also a bit concerned that these injections have now had no effect and I'm not sure if another course is in order :?. What do you think about the twisting the needle?

Simone the injections were given to us already drawn up into 21 individual syringes. I'm pretty sure it wasn't diluted and I wasn't told to do so.

Inny, it's hard to say...the lump in his tummy is pretty big still, he'd been eating chickens fine until a few weeks ago when he regurged one. I think maybe 2 in one sitting was a bit too much so I've given him a bit of a break and will just continue with one at a time I think. Still don't know what this is though...I think my next stop will be a throat swab to test for coccidia.

Hey pike, no idea what's wrong with him :?

Thanx Browneye . With the whole shedding thing, he's shed fine in the same situation in the past but it doesn't hurt to up the humidity at that time for him so I think I'll do that next time to see if it helps. It seems like maybe it's more that he's tired or can't be bothered shedding cos he has a terracotta pot and rock water bowl to rub on but he doesn't bother trying...except for the top of his head this time and about 1/3 of his body the last. He just seems to give up.

 

[geckodan]

...the lump in his tummy is pretty big still

About where roughly is the lump. Have we sent faecals off for Cryptosporidia testing yet .
If you are getting no response to that barrage of baytril then baytril is not your drug of choice. In my hands, I would aspirate the mass and culture if smear suggested primary bacterial. Baytril is no wonder drug, just one of the choice we have . Sometimes its a great drug, other times it is innapropriate.
The comment regarding injection in the first 1/3 of the body is referring to the reptilian Renal Portal System. Simply it means that the blood in the rear of the snake goes via the kidneys and then to the rest of the body whilst the blood in the front half goes via the rest of the body and then via the kidneys. A potential renal toxic drug in the back half of the body goes straight to its toxic site without metabolism first - whack, dead kidney, equally dead snake. Not that much of a drama with baytril but have seen a couple with gentamicin. I can't see much point in twisting the needle (the hole in the skin will still be the same size).

Sorry Danny, but I did apologise for the topic title

You apologised in advance but everybody else still went on a vet bash anyway. Luckily we mongrels have thick skin (goes with our thick wallets, apparently).

 

[OuZo]

The lump is actually his stomach wall which is very inflamed...it looks like he's eaten food but hasn't. He was operated on in April to see what was going on but the only thing that was found was the inflamed stomach...nuthin else. No biopsy was taken. A faecal was sent off a while back to test for everything including Crypto...that came back negative. Is it possible there was no response to the Baytril because sub cut isn't as effective or do you find it'll work the same regardless? And reading what you've said about the position on the body, it seems that shouldn't make a difference to the effectiveness is that correct?

goes with our thick wallets, apparently

I used to work with at a vet....they used to always tell me how thin their wallets were lol. I'm surprised at how little you guys get paid considering how much education and work you did/do. Lucky you do it for the love eh?

 

[geckodan]

Position was mainly to work out what organs system involved. Systemic meds get everything at once so that's not an issue. I would retest for crypto. Its hard to pick up at the best of times but presents as chronic debilitating gastritis that goes on for ever causing mid body lumps and intermittent regurg. It is also infectious to humans. It is shed intermittentently so can be missed sometimes.

 

[beknluke]

There are good, bad and great vets out there - but it's the bad ones that get us on here having to ask everybody else for advice.
I really don't have a lot of faith in the reptile vets that we have down here because of personal experience and what I have heard. Mind you, I have only ever heard great things about Brendan Carmel, but a) he's about 2hrs drive from here, and b) I reckon he must be making up for the thin wallets that all of the other vets have coz he charges exceptionally high consult prices.
I've taken to buying as many herp medicine books as I can and to keeping phone numbers of other keepers on hand. I just haven't had a lot of luck with reptile specialist vets in Melb. Mind you - our cat and dog vet down the road has been a fantastic help whenever I have had reptiles with issues. They have bent over beckwards to try and help them.
It's just a shame that there aren't more reptile specialist vets around who really know their stuff Danny - you guys who DO have the experience and knowledge seem to be few and far between.
Bex

 

[Wrasse]

You apologised in advance but everybody else still went on a vet bash anyway. Luckily we mongrels have thick skin (goes with our thick wallets, apparently).

Allow me to be clear if my posts were not. I am in no way Vet Bashing in my responses.

I stated that the Baytril given was a heavy dose, then went on to say I wouldn't question why the vet would give this dose.
-- Why wouldn't I question this? Because I don't know Nymphs situation and the Vet does. I am sure the Vet gave the dose he thought appropriate given the situation.

I questioned the needle twisting situation.
-- Why ? Because I have never heard of this before and would like to know if this is being advised and the reasons why.

I also went on to suggest ways to use Baytril with less 'stress', recommended cultures and gave links for alternative medication. I recommended that the people here speak to their vets about what I had said.

Having said the above....

Vets, like anyone else, are simply normal people with further education in a given area. This doesn't make them infallible and I think it is in the best interests, for further Veterinary education and for reptile keepers education, to question the treatments and methods being used. To discuss and strive to reach higher knowledge in the treating of our reptile friends.

I know Vets get a raw deal. Often running blind with an animal that can't tell them what is wrong or how it feels, reps particularly so. Vets study for (often more) years, and don't reap the financial rewards that are available for less study in other fields. Clients choose the cheapest path because they don't want to spend the money neccessary for tests and further investigation, then jump up and down when their animal doesn't get better for lack of the correct information. (Lets face it, Vets have a screw loose to choose this path, for sure )

But the bottom line here is:

Communication. If someone else has experiences to share, then herpers and Vets both need to listen, evaluate and consider the possibility that there may be other ways to deal with/do something.

 

[geckodan]

Baytril given was a heavy dose,

I would not agree that this dose regime is out of the ordinary. 5-10 mg /kg every 24-72 hours. It depends on the case. Oral meds are good but it is actually much harder to teach an amateur how to tube a snake than to inject a snake. I still only use baytril maybe 30% of the time. Its rarely my first choice unless smears or culture indicate otherwise.

Lets face it, Vets have a screw loose to choose this path, for sure

I find this quite innaccurate, it's not just one screw loose, there are heaps. Don't underestimate our level of screwloosedness.
A recent study in the UK showed that the level of dissatisfaction based suicide was three times higher amongst vets than the average for the country and 10% higher than any other profession. The basic answer was that most vets felt that what was once a highly respected profession that charged accordingly had been downgraded to being an animal based tradesman that overcharged and had the cheek to try and justify it.
Don't take it to heart Wrasse, I can take criticism with the best of them and give it in return. No feelings hurt.

 

[OuZo]

Clients choose the cheapest path because they don't want to spend the money neccessary for tests and further investigation, then jump up and down when their animal doesn't get better for lack of the correct information.

Heya Wrasse, dunno if that was a general comment or directed at me but we've done whatever has been suggested to us by our vet! Probably spent almost $1000 on this little man and I'm sure most would think I have many more screws loose than vets being that he's a coastal :lol:

If it's relevant the dosage was .25ml sub-cut once daily of Baytril 50. I also have the full blood test results scanned into the comp if anyone thinks they could get a better idea from them :?

 

[beknluke]

I second that Zo - you have screws loose :lol:
But it's ok - we'll be batty together I'm off to the vet this arvo
Bex

 

[instar]

Lmao GeckoDan ! :lol:
Herpers v's Vets down at cronulla on sunday! :twisted: :lol:

Zoey Zoey Zoey, Oi Oi OI !

 

[Wrasse]

Clients choose the cheapest path because they don't want to spend the money neccessary for tests and further investigation, then jump up and down when their animal doesn't get better for lack of the correct information.

Heya Wrasse, dunno if that was a general comment or directed at me but we've done whatever has been suggested to us by our vet! Probably spent almost $1000 on this little man and I'm sure most would think I have many more screws loose than vets being that he's a coastal :lol:

No, it was just a general comment. All too often, clients come into a vet with a sick animal that they want fixed and they seem to think there is a miracle cure available and with the snap of his fingers, the vet will fix it up and it will cost peanuts.

People don't stop to consider blood tests, cultures, exploratory surgery and when they are faced with the prospect, don't want to spend the money neccessary to have these done.

Regardless that when they themselves get sick, they have blood tests, ultrasounds, X-rays, everything they can convince their doctor to do, they don't seem to think Vets have to do this for their animals too...

 

[zen]

Don't abuse anyone :roll:. It's not cool 8)

Talk about it calmly.

It's probably just human error. **** happens!

Sounds to me like the concentration was too strong.
The animal has to be weighed accurately & the solution diluted.

Peace, love, communication, understanding & forgiveness is the way to go.


zen