B&W Jungle first clutch help

[Dmnted]

Hi All,

Firstly, sorry for the essay but I thought it is better to give ALL the info I have

I've owned various snakes for 5 years but never bred them before.
This year I decided it was time for breeding and got it right because she dropped a clutch of 22+ eggs 2 days ago with no slugs
Shes 5 years old.
I purchased a recubator incubator which is exactly the same as a exo terra incubator and set up my temps and egg box with vermiculite 50/50 mix 2 days before she layed.
I was surprised how many she layed for a first clutch and luckily I had already thought of various container sizes to fit all the eggs in.

Now to why I need help!

The incubator has a small fan to distribute heat at the bottom of the setup.
The temps down the bottom of the incubator next to the fan are more stable than at the top of the incubator.
I have thermometers inside and ouside the egg box.
Heres how things are going.

Due to the size of the egg container I can use the bottom of the incubator or a shelf half way up.

On the floor of the incubator temps in the incubator range from 31.5 to 32.9
Inside the egg box they range from 30 to 30.5.

On the shelf half way up the temps inside the incubator range from 31.5 to 34
Inside the egg box they range from 28.5 to 29.5.

I decided the more stable temps on the bottom was the go and rotate the egg box every day to avoid the fan cooking eggs on one side of the egg box.

Now I should have candled the eggs before I put them in but after two days of incubation I did this afternoon.
It appears that 2-3 eggs on each side of the egg box which would have been right next to the fan have no veins when I candle them.
Cooked....? hope not but maybe.

Humidity is high with small amounts of condensation on the side of the egg box but nothing on the lid

So...any advice? What would you do?
Do people measure temps inside or outside the egg container ?

I have moved the eggs to the top shelf away from the fan and added a large container of sealed water on the bottom to hopefully stable the temp fluctuations.

Please disregard temps shown in photos attached.
I took them just after the door was open moving the clutch to the second shelf.

Cheers everyone

Update:
After putting a sealed container of water in the bottom of the enclosure the temps are now stable. 31 -32 degrees in the incubator and 29.9 to 30 degrees in the egg box.

To anyone thinking of purchasing an incubator of this style, temperature fluctuation and gradients seem to be an issue when large containers are placed inside due to limited airflow.
The temps displayed on the readout are inacurate and it has a two degree buffer.
For example, if you set the temp to 33 degrees which is measured at the top of the incubator it will reach this temp however, as the temperature drops, it will not start to reheat until it drops to degrees to 31.
The same for cooling, it will not start to cool unless temps go above 35 when it is set at 33.
This fact is noted on the Exo Terra incubator manual so they are not suitable for sensitive eggs.

 

[Fantazmic]

so really what your saying is you need to do a trial run first to work out whether the temps are stable before putting real reptile eggs in

sounds like a pain...but it does look like a good little unit

Elizabeth

 

[hugsta]

Those temps are fine, slightly cooler temps will just mean a slightly longer incubation period. Most python eggs are quite tolerant to temp fluctuations and the jungle eggs should all hatch without any hassles I would imagine. Good luck with them.

 

[Dmnted]

Yep Elizabeth, due to the size of the incubator the temps are a little tricky.
I did have the temps sorted 2 days before adding eggs however everything changed due to the size of the clutch and having to double the size of my egg box.
The only thing I can recommend with this unit is measure the temps inside the egg box and not in the incubator and try to do it with the exact container you will be incubating the eggs in.
With a fan distributing heat, airflow around containers make a big difference.

Thanks hugsta, I'm pretty happy how things are going on day six now.
I candled last night and out of all the eggs I can get to there are 3-4 which appear infertile and the rest all fine.
There are small dimples and a little colapse of some eggs but nothing extreme.
I am going to leave infertile eggs alone until they start to grow mould.
When they do I will decide how to handle them then.
My thoughts so far is to leave them attached and initially treat them with tinea powder and only try to remove them if it looks like they will affect other eggs.
With further monitoring, there is a big temp gradient inside the egg box but it is the best I am going to get it.

 

[wokka]

I would probably leave the tubs permanently on the one shelf to see the difference in hatching dates. the cooler temps should take a couple of days longer to hatch. see if there is any difference in size, coloration or general health. That's how we learn!

 

[Ramsayi]

How could the temps in the egg container be lower than the temp of the incubator?

 

[Dmnted]

Sorry Ramsay, I should have been more accurate in my description.
There are big temp differences between the front and back of the incubator.
The back has the fan distributing heat and a number of aluminimum fins for heating the air the fan pushes out.
The temp inside the egg box closely matches temps in the incubator both front and back.

I candled the eggs again last night and all apart from 3 eggs look good with a pink shade and small veins.
The 3 inferile eggs and one other on the top have dimpled slightly.
have a concern the humidity is not high enough.
When I candled them last night which is 8 days into incubation, the eggs seem like dry leather, harder and not anywhere near soft.
I havent got a hygrometer in there at the moment.
Is it normal for them to be like this after 8 days ?

Update:
Forget my last post on being worried about humidity!

I have now put in a hygrometer and it is sitting at 99% which is the maximum the exo terra hygrometer goes to.
No mould after 9 days including the infertile eggs.

Ha Ha, I'm starting to feel like a worried surrogate father with his first born coming
God help my wife because we are planning to start a family next year.

Update:
I thought I would regularly update this thread with pictures of how things progress.

This photo shows the eggs at day 11.

At the bottom of the picture there are two infertile eggs which are dimpled but no mould to date.

The egg which I could describe as on top of the clutch which is dimpled is still fertile and showing good veins when candling.

One of the two eggs which are dimpled up the top of the photo next to the thermometer probe is infertile and all others good.
There has been no further dimples forming after day 3 of incubation.

The slight brown spots on eggs on the left are not wet and have not discoloured since day 1.

 

[Dmnted]

Day 13 - Mouldy Egg:
Ok, over the past 48 hours I have had one of the infertile eggs collapsed and started to grow mould.
I decided to remove all three infertile eggs and cut away as much of the shell as possible.
I did this by getting some 30 ml syringes and attached some tube to the end.
I made a small slit in the top of the egg, inserted the tube and sucked out as much of the contents as possible.
The worst egg had a slimy semi solid goo inside which could not be sucked into the syringe so I used cotton balls to absorb the moisture and mop everything up.
I also squirted a small amont of tinaderm fungiside tinea powder on the inside of each empty shell once cleaned to hopefully avoid more mould growing

People who say that you need a strong stomach is an understatement !

The photo is of the the clutch after I put it back in the incubator on the side where the two infertile eggs were removed as best as possible.(sorry for the poor quality)
I could have done better but they were out of the incubator for 30 - 40 mins and I thought that was long enough.

Now to wait and see how things go.

 

[John_lisa]

hi

this thread is intresting as im intrested in breeding anyway i understood everything u have been saying in this bar one thing in ur last post u
said u sucked the three infertile eggs of there content and removed as much of the shell as possable i dont understand why did u not just remove
the egg and dispose of it unless i have miss understood what u were saying
hopefully that makes enough sence for u to explain if u wish to thanx

john

 

[Dmnted]

Hey john. i incubated the clutch as a whole this year and didnt seperate each egg.
I did attempt to remove the egg but it was too stuck to 3 good eggs around it and i didn't want to tear and destroy the other good eggs.
Next year i will be trying to seperate them.
I dont want to have to remove a bad egg the way i did again! Discusting!

 

[John_lisa]

hahaha ok cool makes sence than u for explaining either it was not said or i did not see that u had it stuck to 3 good eggs that makes a hole lot of sense now lol cheers for replying hope all goes well for u

 

[Dmnted]

Day 17.
I increased the temps by 1 degree after I removed the infertile eggs and now taking measurements on each side of the clutch.
The probes are sitting on the clutch where i have removed eggs.
There is a variation 31.3 to 31 on one side and 29.6 to 29.9 on the other.
Not sure what temps are occuring outside the egg box
Some of the eggs have dimpled a little but no mould has developed from the remaining shells of eggs I removed.

There is 1 egg which I am unsure will go full term from of the original 4 I thought were infertile.
It still has faint veins but is starting to collapse a little and I am reluctant to candle it on a regular basis.
I am not sure if regular candling may cause problems and unable to find a clear answer.

Hope everything I'm doing (being pedantic..ha ha) may help other first time breeders in measuring temps and deciding to leave or remove eggs which go bad.

I hope I can show you all a whole heap of healthy hatchlings in the end !

 

[Dmnted]

Day 23 Update and almost half way:

It's now day 23 and things have changed yet again.
Another egg appears to have gone bad.

The egg is on the bottom of the clutch and I have never been unable to candle it (so my claims of "all other eggs are good" are false)
The egg in question has dimpled a little and a yellowish liquid is oozing from it.
It is not smelling too bad but I have a feeling things will get worse
I will leave it alone at the moment to see if surrounding eggs and the egg itself develop mould.
The shells of previous eggs I removed have developed a little green mould however, it has remained localised and not spread to surrounding good eggs.
This leads me to belive some claims that healthy eggs have a natural barrier to mould but, we will see how things go.

I have again candled a couple of healthy eggs and 1/3 to half the eggs are completely red and unable to see through other than large veins on the top half.
I assume these are going well.

The "crappy" photo is of the bad egg in the centre under the thermometer probe (with condensation wiped away)
Humidity is still at 99%

 

[AUSHERP]

My friend purchased one for his geckos and has the exact problem with temp fluctuations. he uses cricket tubs as containers, and experiences exactly what you described. he still hatches eggs but does lose alot more than me.

 

[Dmnted]

Thanks Ausherp, so it's not just me...
I will be buying a professional setup or making my own as well as seperating eggs to ensure I have more success next year.

 

[Dmnted]

Day 29:
Things have not changed much since day 23.
I'm opening the sealed container everyday now and the remaining egg going bad has not deteriorated too much.
There is a small amount of mould the size of a match head on the "seam" between it and a healthy egg.
I am leaving it for the moment and hope the mould does not grow too much
I guess you could say i'm half way now

 

[waruikazi]

What colour did your bad eggs candle?

If that is the thermostat probe sitting inside the egg container you should move it to outside the egg box.

 

[Dmnted]

Hey waruikazi.
The three infertile eggs I removed were yellow with no veins after two weeks, had collapsed and started to grow mould.
The latest one I haven't been able to candle with it's position and is directly below two eggs I removed.
It is surprising it looked good until a few days after I removed the two eggs above.
Maybe it's still ok, maybe the tinaderm which fell on it from treating the above effected it....who knows.
I found an article with some pictures of a clutch incubated with a slug attached.(supplied)
Some people say that they have had lost eggs surrounding a mouldy egg, some people say fertile eggs have a natural "barrier" to mould.
I'm leaving it at the moment to see how things progress.

Why do you suggest moving the probe outside the egg box considering the temp fluctuations I have described ?

 

[damo77]

Awesome read. Thanks for sharing. Will definitely be dropping back to keep updated. Cant wait to see what happens next episode. It's like watching a soapie!

 

[waruikazi]

There's two reasons to move the probe.

The first is- if the probe is on the inside the egg container and the heat source needs to turn on, then because of the barrier and heat sink inside the container, the temperatures outside the container can get higher than than what you have set your thermostat to before the heat has filtered through to the probe. So even thought the heat source has turned off your container can continue to heat to a higher level. Which means you can get heat spikes.

Second is that late in the incubation your eggs will produce their own heat (can get upto 36 degrees) and you can end up getting the reverse of the first problem. Your heat source may turn off in an attmept to cool the eggs when they don't need to.