Im Clueless and too far away

[longqi]

I am too far away to help much with this
Also cannot think of what it may be
Any ideas?
Very caring owners so I dont think temps etc would have anything to do with this problem

Hi Peter,

How are you? In Aus or overseas? I hope this email reaches you.

My husband, Neville, and I, Kirsi, bought a beautiful carpet python from you at Cairns Night Markets last year. He was then 1.3m, now about 2m long. Max has been doing well until very recently. As he has been growing we have gradually gone from feeding small and then medium size rat every three weeks. He has had good apetite most of the time and there's been no problems with feeding him or with his digestion. He's been shedding his skin regularly and always in one nice piece. He has so far looked very healthy in every way.

Four days ago he got a large size rat which we thought was too big and that he wouldn't eat it. He however did and seemed ok the next 24 hours after feeding. Since then he started moving a lot which is unusual to him soon after a meal. Then 2 days after having the rat Max excreted the big rat as a whole. He had only digested a bit of the head. The enclosure was thorougly cleaned and then Max put back. After that he started behaving very weirdly: moved around the enclosure head up side down opening his mouth and looked like he had some sort of a seizure. Some neurological symptoms? After behaving like that for a few hours he settled down and hasn't moved very much since. But the body of the snake looks fairly bad: swollen at some parts and shrunken at others like the neck. At the swollen bits the skin is also coming off a bit and doesn't look healthy. He also smells sickly. He hasn't been drinking or even gone near the water since excreting the rat.

Would you know what is wrong with him and whether there is anything we could do? So far we have left him rest in peace and made sure he's got clean water near him but haven't touched him at all as haven't been wanting to stress him out even more. I would very much appreciate your reply. We definitely don't want to lose this pet and it's horrible to see him suffering. The vets around here don't know anything about snakes. I'm planning to contact an airport vet, too.

Kind Regards, Kirsi

I have immediately suggested increasing temps 2c
Airport vets are great and have definitely recommended they get in there
But they live a long way out bush and it will be a very long trip

Ive never seen that reaction from eating something too big?
Possibility there was something wrong with the rat??
Any ideas I can forward to them

 

[Scribble_pants]

hmmm.. he should have spat it out again... I definately think a very is very important. I would be careful not to increase temp too much, I know they need a good hot temperature to heal and get better but I have lost a few to heat. I have had experiance with vets who don't know their **** and it is tragic and frusterating. Sometimes if they are the only option they can contact anouther vet from the city who have more experiance and education in the area. I think that if they ask nice enough and explain that it is their only option that the local vet will call someone more experianced and get the advice, even on the medication.

 

[DeadCricket]

Normally if the prey is too large they won't get it down to start. I have an md around that size that loves large rats! Eats one every 10 days.

Could the rat have gone down wrong and claws have damaged something?

Normally regurgitating after the fact would be related to some other instance of stress? Not necisarily an ongoing thing, more like an 'i've gotta lighten the load incase I have to run'?

The moving around oddly sounds like the snake is trying to fix an internal issue. Like the yawns and twists if the jaw doesn't reset on first yawn after feed?

Maybe a warm bath and a bit of a massage to see if its muscles are cramping up or something?

Wish I could be more help but these would be my initial thoughts. Best wishes

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Sounds more like the item was regurgitated rather than excreted? I would say the food item went off too quick for the snake metabolism. That is usually an indication of needing higher temperatures especially with given large prey items or too higher temperatures which at a certain point will also reduce the snake metabolism to being useless as well.

 

[Waterrat]

I go along with what Dave have said. Had he exctreted the rat, he would be dead.

Now, the Airport Vet had fantastic reputation while the owner, A. O. was practicing there. She sold the business last year and is no longer available for consultation. No further comments.

The best reptile vet by far is Peter Barratt at Marlin Coast Veterinary Surgery (turn left off Cook Hwy at Trinity Beach). Peter is not only an excellent vet but he has a real interest in reptiles, he is the one who spent time up at Iron Range with David Wilson, implanting radio-transmitters into Green Pythons and retrieving them. Peter also consults other reptile specialists e.g. Mark Simpson (Sugarloaf pet hospital), so if in doubt, he can lean on other experts.

 

[longqi]

Ive forwarded the replies that seemed possibly helpful
Im in Borneo until tomorrow so cant even get at my records for that snake because they are on puter in Bali
But Im 100% sure it had nothing to do with anything from the past

Shame about airport vets
She was great
Any more ideas very gratefully accepted
Im off line now 24hrs but have linked them to that thread
Hopefully they get my mails

Thanks
Peter

 

[cement]

You know with the symptoms that they mention it sounds like a possible gut infection or infestation of worms. A two meter python shouldn't have too much trouble with a large rat. But if there was already a problem in its gut then that could explain the re-gurge and also the bloating as an infection or poorly digested item will produce gas. Also round worm infestations can cause regurge, but the snake usually brings up a number of worms at the same time, which I guess would be its natural defence against the worm. The head corkscrewing could also be not necesarily neuro, but an attempt at further re-gurge, especially if there is something sitting the gut rotting. I would be checking the food supplier and the quality of food too, to rule out poisoned wild rats etc.
This is only an internet diagnosis on info supplied, hope it pulls through.

 

[Poggle]

I go along with what Dave have said. Had he exctreted the rat, he would be dead.

Couldnt agree more. Contact Peter Barratt up that way. Other wise you will struggle for other vets wit thetime and effort to work on snakes.

Also agree with cement in regards to checking food supplier, but more so with what Dave said, maybe the food went off quicker in the gut before full digestion was able to happen.

 

[longqi]

Hi Peter,

Thanks ever so much for your replies. Very helpful.

Temperature has been 29/30 Celsius, have now increased it to 33. Max
drank quite a bit of water about five hours ago and we thought it was
a good sign. But just an hour ago we noticed that he had actually gone
much worse. In addition to the skin peeling off along about 5 cm of
his length the flesh is also torn and you can see the insides of the
snake (the gut?). Looks fairly bad and the cut seems like it might be
expanding.

Yes, it was a white rat. Have bought most of the rats from the same
pet shop in Cairns, this was like others and we did defrost it as
usual. Rat was 'served' thorougly warm, hadn't been in sun or anything
for too long and smelt and looked ok.
I'm fairly positive the rat was excreted rather than vomited. I had a
good look at the rat, the position how it was in the enclosure and the
way its hair was lined, the fact that most of the head had already
been digested etc gave quite clear indication of that.
So I am actually worried that he might have damaged himself quite
badly inside while eating although you said that is very rare.

I would appreciate any further info if you come up with something.
Will let him rest overnight and keep temperature high and ring the vet
in the morning (will try again even now if someone on call).

Thanks very much Peter. Will keep our fingers crossed and will be in touch.
......
Hi Peter,

I'm sorry to let you know that Max had to be euthanased today.
Such a shock to lose him so suddenly, a few days ago we still had a healthy snake.
Took him to the Marlin Coast vets. He was examined by a very competent 'reptile' vet, Peter Barratt. Had never seen something like this before in a snake brought up in captivity. Max had damaged his bowel very badly while passing the rat, the wall of the bowel had been torn. Couldn't have recovered from it. Had developed a fistula around there and subsequent septicaemia. At least he did not have to suffer any longer.

Thanks for all your help. Will take some time to recover from this but will be looking at getting a new python later. Maybe a male and a female. We were already in a process of getting Max a partner anyway.

All the best for you in Indonesia. Hope things are working out for you there.
....

Sad ending
I have no idea why he passed the rat rather than regurging??
Any ideas?
Have asked them to definitely check their temp probe with a babies thermometer
29/30C for a NSW Coastal should have been fine

Thanks everyone for your help
Sorry it wasnt better news
Maybe the additional information may help someone work out what happened and why?

 

[Bel03]

Oh my, that is so sad.......im so sorry for your loss, what a terrible way for him to go. I wish you guys all the best with your new babies in the future, again, very sorry for your loss.

 

[Helikaon]

that is very unfortunate for them. I have treated a similar case where the teeth of the rat had perforated the snake oesophogus and the skull and body sat their and rotted. nasty stuff first time i had ever seen anything like it. It was WA woma never had any issues until that feed according to the owner

 

[DeadCricket]

I'm sorry to hear that it ended this way. Unfortunately good husbandry is only a step we can take, not a preventive measure.

If the rat had eaten nearly off food before being euthanised could this have contributed? I myself have decided to throw rats that appear to be bloated with gas etc.

The husbandry seems to be spot on. Some nice belly heat to digest etc. its good that this experience won't turn them off future keeping. I have seen good keepers leave the hobby over a death whilst bad ones continue on luck.