our pets wild animals? wht are we really giving our herps?

[Andrais]

Hey guys,
This has been popping into my head for about 2 weeks now, and its bugged me so much i want to hear other peoples opinions on it.

I was recently talking to a man from canberra, he was like one of those enviromental freaks, like all animals should be wild ect. And well i told him about my blue tongues and the snake i wanted for christmas. Well he came back to me saying...
"You do know that reptiles are wild animals, and that they should be better off out in the wild than in captivity,"
and i was like were was this guy getting at?
i replied...
"But these animals that i want to keep and are keeping are born in captivity, they were rasied by humans,"
but he still carried on saying that they can't be tamed and there for they are wild animals and should belong in the wild, and that they arn't domesticated like cats and dogs.
But this time i kinda got really sick of hearing him carrying on, but it struck me that, it is true that reptiles arn't like our cats and dogs, they act differntly towards us then a domesticated animal.
And the last thing he said to me was.
"And above all, i think that it isn't fair that wild animals such as reptiles shouldn't be kept in those cages u put them in, ahhhh...vivaruims is that it?
I anwsered back saying that reptiles in captivity live a longer and more happy life whilst in the hands of humans.

Now this guy has a point thats been quizzing me for weeks. Wht are we really giving our reptiles? a prison sell? locking them away from a wild open desert plain? were they can catch their own food and have a whole 1000km of space to roam around in? yes yes i know that almost everyones reptiles hear are captive bred, but they still have the instinct that all of the other reptiles out in the wild have.

or are we giving them a loving home that they all deserve?

this is really hard to put in words so i hope u guys understand. And lets all face it, they may not seem to be wild animals, but they are, deep down inside still a WILD ANIMAL that over the past decade or two we've been trying to domesticate into becoming our pets for our interest. When these animals escape, rarely they ever do come back, and i know people put up post saying that they found there pet snakes 3 months later ect. But THEY actually found the snake, the snake wasn't looking for them.

Now i really don't know what to think, i need someones opinion to help me out hear, At the moment i am very confused, so please i don't want comments saying im talk bull sh**, casue im trying to sought out in my head wht we are doing is good from the animal or good for us??
thanks
andrea

 

[ravan]

look at it this way, it's been born in captivity and it doesnt know any different. It has food, shelter and somewhere warm to go. people keep fish in aquariums, should we all go and liberate them so they can all go live in the ocean? is that any different to keeping reptiles in cages?
they keep tigers at the zoo... should we go and liberate them and put them back in the wild?
As long as they are well looked after and well treated, I dont see the harm in keeping them.

 

[sweetangel]

i dare say we think about our selves over the animals. they would deffinitley have more freedom out in the wild, but then they would also have to deal with all the hardships such as diseases, finding food, water, dealing with predators. reptiles do live longer in captivity probably because they dont have to deal with those things.
i guess its the same reason we keep any wild pet, birds are wild, horses are wild, they also deserve to be free, but still we keep them. i dont think its any different to reptiles. as long as the animals are eating, breeding and going about normal functions then i think they have to be happy enough. if an animal is not happy or it feels insecure it wont eat or procreate. its when people start keeping reptiles or any animal for that matter in an environment that isnt suitable. thats not fair to any animal. so its up to the quality of the environment that the animal is being kept in, if its large enough, seems natural enough and fulfills the animals requirements then i think keeping them is fine!

 

[Bassassin]

Hey guys,
This has been popping into my head for about 2 weeks now, and its bugged me so much i want to hear other peoples opinions on it.

I was recently talking to a man from canberra, he was like one of those enviromental freaks, like all animals should be wild ect. And well i told him about my blue tongues and the snake i wanted for christmas. Well he came back to me saying...
"You do know that reptiles are wild animals, and that they should be better off out in the wild than in captivity,"
and i was like were was this guy getting at?
i replied...
"But these animals that i want to keep and are keeping are born in captivity, they were rasied by humans,"
but he still carried on saying that they can't be tamed and there for they are wild animals and should belong in the wild, and that they arn't domesticated like cats and dogs.
But this time i kinda got really sick of hearing him carrying on, but it struck me that, it is true that reptiles arn't like our cats and dogs, they act differntly towards us then a domesticated animal.
And the last thing he said to me was.
"And above all, i think that it isn't fair that wild animals such as reptiles shouldn't be kept in those cages u put them in, ahhhh...vivaruims is that it?
I anwsered back saying that reptiles in captivity live a longer and more happy life whilst in the hands of humans.

Now this guy has a point thats been quizzing me for weeks. Wht are we really giving our reptiles? a prison sell? locking them away from a wild open desert plain? were they can catch their own food and have a whole 1000km of space to roam around in? yes yes i know that almost everyones reptiles hear are captive bred, but they still have the instinct that all of the other reptiles out in the wild have.

or are we giving them a loving home that they all deserve?

this is really hard to put in words so i hope u guys understand. And lets all face it, they may not seem to be wild animals, but they are, deep down inside still a WILD ANIMAL that over the past decade or two we've been trying to domesticate into becoming our pets for our interest. When these animals escape, rarely they ever do come back, and i know people put up post saying that they found there pet snakes 3 months later ect. But THEY actually found the snake, the snake wasn't looking for them.

Now i really don't know what to think, i need someones opinion to help me out hear, At the moment i am very confused, so please i don't want comments saying im talk bull sh**, casue im trying to sought out in my head wht we are doing is good from the animal or good for us??
thanks
andrea

In my opinion what we herp lovers are involved in and may not be so apparent at the time when becoming a liscenced reptile keeper is the conservation of our natural fauna. My interest is just that, down the track some of these creatures we love to have may become endangered or once were and due to our research and breeding efforts are on there way back.
I don't think we have these reptiles in captivity to teach them how to sit or roll over or even fetch a ball.
Dingo's are known to have become pets, they are not stupid and are still very instictive in there behaviour. Very good companions but very unlike a domesticated dog. The pet Dingo's I have come accross don't rome free from a lead or pen, give them any chance and they'll seek out the nearest livestock or back yard bunny. These dingo's seemed content.
I'm not to sure of the brain capacities of many reptiles but they are even more instinctive than the Dingo. I'm sure all reptiles can learn from there surroundings, where food and water is and when it is. When in the top end of Australia I suggest that you do not go to the waters edge at the same spot 3 times in a row. You may ask why? Well Crocodiles are very cunning and the 3rd time you go to that spot on the waters edge is in my opinion the begining of "pushing it". Crocs = Lizards = Learners. All this is survival learned or instinstinctive.
Keeping reptiles in captivity under the right conditions should keep the your reptile happy and you as the keeper can be the only predator which I'm guessing is not what your trying to accomplish.
If your having doubts or feel that this over conservationist dude has you feeling guilty then let him know that the creatures you are keeping are the ones you saved from the destruction of forrests to build his home he lives in and the threads he wears made by machines that originally started as raw material from an open cut mine in the Earth. If the Earth is to survive, that is if we are killing it, we all need to die and it would be a good start for someone to lead the way, such as the overconservationist dude.
This is a debate that can go on for ever as we don't have the benefit of hindsight about the convential world today, a lot of theory.

Anyway I'll stop rambling and I hope that may have given a few more angles of thought.


Peace

 

[notechistiger]

Send a PM to Earthling He can talk philosophically with you.

I think we personify reptiles too much. Do you think a snake is happy? As in the degree of happiness that humans experience? Do you think they wake up in the morning and think something like, "It's a lovely day."? I know quite a few people on this site do. But honestly, how can they? They do not have a brain large enough to contemplate such things. Look at the things you know they need to thrive; water, heat, shelter. Give them these and they will live, breed and die healthy lives.

I am an advocate for stimulating reptiles with different scents and the like, but do you think they get bored if these are not present? Honestly, who can say. This is a topic so broad and complicated that everyone will have a different opinion, and no one can definitely say who is correct. My philosophy on this is if a reptile is "unhappy" with it's living conditions, it would not act like it should (such as hunting behaviours), it would not feed nor shed nor defecate as it should, and nor would it breed.

Please don't try to personify your animals. Don't think of it as a "how would you like it if you stuck in a little box" type of issue. Reptiles are very simple animals with very simple needs. If you fulfill these needs, then your animals will not need the pressures of "the wild" to have some sort of validation for their existence.

 

[Sturdy]

i think we all forget that snakes in general are rather stupid.... and we are ment to be the smart ones....
You've got something thats Deaf and can barely see and hides for most of the time...
i realllly dont think it will notice the difference between a enclosure and the wild since their memory is not as long as we all assume...
then again... captives have been repeatedly bred in captivity, how would they know what the wild is about..

then again if i was you... i would just tell the dude to shove it and go parrot somewhere else.

 

[ScottRamsay]

Reptiles have different attitudes to other animals.
You will find that dogs come back because they are alot smarter. You can teach a dog tricks and disciplain. How to sit, bark or come back because it identifies its' name. You could easily say that dogs and Cats constantly try to escape too, like if you leave the back door open or something, same story with a snake.
Snakes will try to bite you because they are more agressive. They can be tamed. If he thinks they can't be tamed, he should look at some people that do reptile shows with some of the most venomous species in the world around their shoulders. They only do that because they trust the snake 100 percent.

Just like a wild snake, you wouldn't approach a wild cat or dog. You don't know what attitude they have towards you. And as I said above, reptiles are completely different animals, just because they aren't cute and fuzzy does not mean you can't keep them in captivity like other pets.

 

[borntobnude]

wow what a read
now i dont know wether to let my Phasmids and beetles go ?
and what about the budgie

 

[notechistiger]

Snakes will try to bite you because they are more agressive. They can be tamed. If he thinks they can't be tamed, he should look at some people that do reptile shows with some of the most venomous species in the world around their shoulders. They only do that because they trust the snake 100 percent.

Um... okay?

 

[Bluetonguejo]

I think it's just another thing like politics and religion and so on.. everyone has a point of veiw about it because it is strongly debateable. Everyone has to make their own opinion and live with that and not let others try force their ideals onto others. my own opinion is alot like Raven & Sweetangel above and also I think by having these beautiful creatures into our home we can educate our children so they can educate others also, about understanding and respecting and not killing out of fear or ignorance.

 

[Waterrat]

Andrea, think about "what is a pet"? IMO, it's an animal that appreciates affection and gives some back. Reptiles, frogs, fishes and invertebrates clearly don't fall into this category because they have no sense of affection like cats or dogs do. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't keep them. By having a captive reptile, we can learn a lot about them and we appreciate them for what they are - it really doesn't go beyond that.
That guy you spoke to was a naive nerd. No doubt about that!

 

[Rainbow-Serpent]

Well look at it this way, if it was born and raised in captivity, then it doesn't know any better, so if you went and released a captive bred one in your backyard, chances are it'll end up dieing.

 

[Miffy]

I kind of agree with him maybe for monitors, as they love to run and climb trees etc and cant in capitivity. Also maybe for turtles in small cramped tanks, as aposed to a nice clean lake.

But snakes like to hide the majority of the time. I have 4ft x 4ft vivs for my snakes so I guess its a little more room than most tanks.

Guess it is why smart birds such as cockatoos can go "nutty" if kept in a small cage with little attention.

 

[Jungletrans]

It is very common in the country for snakes to live in , under or around houses and sheds . They are attracted to the rodents that live near us and the warmth we create for our comfort . lts a small step into an enclosure . And dont forget , cats and dogs are only a few weeks in the bush away from going feral .

 

[Lewy]

Well look at it this way, if it was born and raised in captivity, then it doesn't know any better, so if you went and released a captive bred one in your backyard, chances are it'll end up dieing.

This is debatable. If a snake is released or escaped and is in there area (where the natural occur) then the chances are they should/will survive fine as they live by instinct and don't loose that just because they are in captivity

 

[hallie]

This wannabe "conservationist" should be focusing on far worthier causes

than you keeping a well fed healthy content reptile as a pet...

I think keeping a reptile(correctly ofcourse) is a win for both parties..

He just layed the guilt trip on you to give himself a feelgood buzz that he is doing his bit for the animals...

If he is a crusader for the animal kingdom why isnt he out saving the whales

or trying to stop live animal skinning....?

The human race does far worse to animals than keep them as pets...:|

 

[Brown_Hair]

Id like to hear from PilbraPythons on this one....

 

[ozianimals]

I think what that guy has forgotten is that they are exactly the same as a dog or cat. Some cats and dogs run away from haome and become what we call feral animals. We and they all have natural instincts and we can all get a little wild sometimes. There is more people hospitalised from dog bites than snake bites in this country. That means that we are still trying to perfect the whole domesticated thing. My snakes would not survive in the wild as they do not know how to hunt for wild diseased rodents as they will only eat f/t rodents as they were never introduced to a live feed. Yes a lot of the hunting is instinct, but the instinct has changed slightly from stalking and hunting to wait for it to be thrown in front of me and eat.
Yes my snake seems to enjoy the time being handled but this is something that would vary from animal to animal same as cats who some are people animals and love to be petted and some just want to chase, hunt and kill our native animals. If you can justify not letting someone have one type of animal because they are wild, then the argument would stand for all animals even the goldfish we keep in a 30cm bowl.

P.S. Reptiles are smarter than we give them credit for. They even know that most humans are a threat to them and vamous when we get within a koowee of them.

 

[derekm]

Well look at it this way, if it was born and raised in captivity, then it doesn't know any better, so if you went and released a captive bred one in your backyard, chances are it'll end up dieing.

Even the wild ones mostly die prematurely. The way I figure it, if a pair of pythons produce about 200 eggs over their lifetime, and the population of that species is relatively stable over time, then almost all wild-born pythons will die some time before breeding. Captivity using best practice husbandry methods seems to be a better option for individual reptiles than as fodder for natural selection.

I expect that most of our captive pythons are never more than 2 body lengths away from clean water, the ideal temperature, appropriate humidity, a place to hide, food as required and, in many cases, a breeding partner during breeding season. Sounds like a good life to me!

Another point is that while wild reptiles theoretically can go anywhere, evidence from radio-tracking experiments indicates that they mostly have a relatively small 'home range'. Not as small as a captive enclosure, but much more dangerous!

 

[Lewy]

P.S. Reptiles are smarter than we give them credit for. They even know that most humans are a threat to them and vamous when we get within a koowee of them.

LOL that's funny!! This has nothing to do with being smart its just another instinct. They see and sense heat and as we are a huge heat source they no to move on and that's it.
Nothing to do with being smart