sick turtle

[jessea]

Hi,
The class pet turtle is looking decidedly ill. He has not been eating for some time, and despite a heated tank (25) he appears to be hibernating. When he does appear his skin is a dull flakey grey colour and his eyes are not the usual bright black/yellow. I have tested the Ph and it is sitting at 6.8. Anyone got any suggestions! He is an eastern long neck and we have had him for 3 years with no previous trouble. The local vet said to 'keep an eye on him' but that is not much help. All and any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks,Worried classroom

 

[mines bigger]

what have you tried to feed him???

 

[-Peter]

Adjust the water ph to 7-7.5. i would drop the temp down to 20-22 and put in a basking light. This time of year they tend to go quiet, stop eating and go to sleep for a while. Check the ammonia and nitrate levels of the water as well. Thats a start. Dont know where you are so cant comment on extreme weather fluctuations that a lot of places are having at present.

go here for more info
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AustralianFreshwaterTurtlesandFrogs/

 

[markars]

check around his hands and feet especially around his claws for a discolouration or a cheesy patch. if it has any white or yello spots in and around his claws it is probably fungus. one of the symptoms is lethargy and refusing food. he will also start floating around the tank or sitting on the floor with all his limbs and head just hanging out at later stagesof this disease. If it has these symptoms be ware as it kills small turtles very quickly.

 

[froglady]

working on the ideas

Thank you for the ideas...I have increased the Ph slightly and given the boy a basking light. He still just floats in the water.... Pretty upsetting, but he responds to touch and if he is taken out of the water he will come out to look around. We are in Gippsland and the weather here is shocking! He was being fed crickets, which he devoured happily, as well as worms and at times dried turtle food. Not like a male to be off his tucker though. I shall keep you posted.
Thanks!!

 

[sxc_celly]

Id also be trying a more differenciated diet. Crickets are fantastic but try some shrimp, prawns, meat (not mince), mealworms, etc. Check for cheesy white/yellow spots for fungus, and youve lowered the tank temp and created a basking spot which is great - if he doesnt use it at all, up the temp of the whole tank to 28-29deg. Fungus is a killer in young turtles. But generally raising the temperature can cure this itself. Definetely check the nitrite and ammonia levels. I found when iworked at a pet store a few mths back, our tap water and even filtered water had more nitrite and ammonia, the tap water was just shocking for these! Also its highly unlikely but made sure no chemicals from lab projects/sprays etc are anywhere near the tank. Keep an eye on him and keep us posted!

 

[Eastern Snake Neck]

In my opinion, sxc_celly has given you some poor advice. She stated "Crickets are fantastic but try some shrimp, prawns, meat (not mince), mealworms, etc". It is important to bear in mind that Freshwater turtles feed underwater, therefore, their diet consists of animals and/or plants that live in freshwater. Crickets are flying insects. I've never seen a flying turtle chasing down crickets. I've seen birds do this, but not turtles. So crickets do not form part of a turtle's natural diet. Shrimp and prawns, if they are the readily available saltwater varieties will cause renal failure in Australian Freshwater Turtles. Our Freshwater turtles (with the exception of Carettochelys insculpta) cannot process salt.

Sxc_celly also suggested feeding them meat. I cannot think of a single red meat animal that lives underwater in Australia. I do know that cows, sheep, goats, horses and other exotic mammals have only been in Australia for about 200 years, so there is no way that they could be part of a turtle's natural diet. That, and I've never seen a turtle rush out of a local creek, grab an unsuspecting cow, and drag her back into the water! Like salt, red meat will lead to renal failure in Australian turtles.

Mealworms...well they'll just clog up a turtle's digestive system, which will obviously lead to death as well.

When it comes to feeding turtles, try to replicate their natural diet as best as possible. Freshwater plants and animals are all fair game for a turtle - Freshwater fish, freshwater yabbies, freshwater snails, freshwater prawns or freshwater shrimp or all part of a healthy turtle diet.

Given that you are in Gippsland, please do not take sxc_celly's advice to raise the tank temperature to 28-29ºC. Fungus is a bacterial infection. Raising the temperature will lead to perfect bacterial breeding conditions. If your turtle has fungus, you want to get rid of the fungus, not encourage it. A complete water change will go a log way to correct a fungus problem. If you are looking at a suitable temperature, please follow Peter's advice and set the temperature at 20-22ºC. However, from what you have described, your turtle does not have fungus. But, raising the temperature will certainly encourage it.

Sadly, the ultimate outcome for this turtle may not be a happy one. However, if you immediately switch to a diet that closely resembles a turtle's natural diet, give him access to UV (preferably sunlight, and not filtered through the tank or a window), he may survive.

 

[xander]

Eastern snake neck, where did you come from?Excellent and practical advice you have given.

 

[Eastern Snake Neck]

Thank you.

 

[markars]

Not a bad speil on the natural diet replication, as much as possible( this i totally agree with and practise) however i think you are wrong on the lack of insects being in a turtles diet. Turtles may not spend a lot of time flying through the air but insects spend a fair bit of time drowning on the surface of the water! perfect turtle tucker!, from my own observations in the wild, both adult and juvenile turtles eat insects. especially in rivers that run through agricultural land. basically most turtles are opportunitic, omniverous feeders and will eat anything that they can! as for red meat, Carrion is a legitmate food source and i have seen turtles chow down on the rancid carcass of a farm animal! (unfortunatly i was snorkleing and got covered in filth). Insect shells clogging up turtles digestive system- Using insects to suppllement a diet( not exclusivly) is not a problem, Yabbie shells and shrimp shells and other fresh water insect shells have the same construction as terestrial insects and wont present a problem. This is my opinion and experience- but a quick check of the turtle bible( canns australian fresh water turtles) says i am not far off.

 

[Eastern Snake Neck]

Markars,

Indeed you are correct. Turtles eat insects that drown on the surface of the water. I've even seen them eat insects before they've drowned. As you point out, they are opportunistic feeders. However, in the absence of consistent kamikaze locust plagues over the past 60 million years or so, I disagree that that an insect makes perfect turtle tucker. Turtles feed underwater, therefore plants and animals that live underwater make up the bulk of a turtle's natural diet.

I loved your references to agricultural land in Australia, and to the rancid carcass of a farm animal. But agricultural land and farm animals (i.e. exotic mammals) have only been in this country for about 200 years. Turtles evolved millions of years ago. I simply do not believe that 200 years is long enough for a species to adapt to food sources that previously did not exist within their environment. Nor do I believe that upon their death, the vast majority of these exotic mammals leap into their local river so that they can become a part of a turtle's diet. I believe that the majority of them are sold off for consumption, and those that do die on a farm, fall down in a paddock.

I also think that too often, people see an animal eating a specific type of food, and simply assume that it is good for them. But, you and I both know that if you offered chocolate to a child for breakfast, or beer to a man for breakfast, then chances are they would take it. But that doesn't mean it is good for them.

Please give me a page reference in John's book so I can read up on what you have read. Please also keep in mind that as we learn more, and research more, we sometimes have to accept that what we took for granted in the past may not always be entirely accurate or healthy. When John's book was published in 1998, he described the now mythical Emydura macquarii dharuk. When John's book was published in 1998, you could still smoke in a pub...

 

[xander]

Hows the turtle going?

 

[froglady]

sad news

Thank you to all those who posted ideas. I really appreciate it. Unfortunately the boy was put down on Saturday.. Very upset. I trust my local vet greatly as she has worked through some tough issues in the past with frogs and snakes I own and she felt that any treatment was prolonging the inevitable. She PMed Twirtle and found an enlarged heart and has shipped off slides and histology for report. He was free of fungus, and she felt that diet was not a problem. Now I awaitn the outcome and debate whether or not to replace Twirtle for our classroom....He shares ( or I should say shared) it with several species of frogs, 2 bearded dragons, a coastal carpet python and stickinsects so I know the kids will be as sad as I am .
Thanks again it is great to have knowledgable people with a variety of ideas!!
jessea

 

[markars]

Spencer, R-J., M.B. Thompson & I.D. Hume. 1998. The diet and digestive energetics of the Murray short-necked turtle, Emydura macquarii. Comp. Biochem. Physiol. 121A: 341-349.
Filamentous algae constituted 61% of the stomach content of E. macquarii. The turtles rarely fed on motile prey, but selected carrion from the lagoon bottom and terrestrial insects (Diptera, Hymenoptera and Coleoptera) trapped on the surface of the water.

Try gooling Stomach contents studies of australian fresh water turtles- you willfind heaps of studies that show terrestrial insects make up large prportions of turtles diets( like the above extract) some show 10 to 25 percent.
the insect did not arrive with the white man he has always been here and been eaten by turtles! mammals have always been here and like most animals, when they are sick or dying they generally head for water! this is where they die if not directly in the water they die close enough to water that the next rain will wash them or peices of them into the river-

Canns page references are 105,119,123129 and many more - just try to read the natural history section of each indiviual species.

 

[Eastern Snake Neck]

Markas,

I have read The diet and digestive energetics of an Australian short-necked turtle, Emydura macquarii. That study states that terrestrial insects make up <0.8% of a turtle's diet. When combined with aquatic insects, the figure rises to <1.6%. I haven't read any studies that show terrestrial insects make up 25% of an Australian turtle's diet. Could you please send me some links?

I agree that insects are not new to Australia, nor are they new to the diets of our turtles. However, my original comment in reference to this was "Mealworms...well they'll just clog up a turtle's digestive system" and I stand by that statement. The point I was trying to make was that it is wrong to encourage keepers to feed mealworms to turtles. Mealworms are not a part of a natural turtle diet. My concern is that misinformed turtle keepers may feed excessive amounts of mealworms to their turtles, simply because the turtles keep eating them.

In Ricky-John Spencer's THE MURRAY RIVER TURTLE, Emydura macquarii: POPULATION DYNAMICS, NESTING ECOLOGY AND IMPACT OF THE INTRODUCED RED FOX, Vulpes vulpes he wrote "Emydura macquarii is a major consumer of filamentous algae, with their diet consisting of more than 60% of various types of algae (Spencer et al. 1998). The turtle is also a major scavenger, with a large proportion of its diet consisting of carrion, predominantly the remains of the introduced European carp (Spencer et al. 1998). Thompson (1993) estimated that 180 000 tonnes of carrion could be consumed each year in the Murray River system by freshwater turtles, which is over 430 tonnes per day." (p10) This indicates that in the Murray River, plant matter and fish combine to make up 97.4% of the E. m. macquarii diet.

You make a very good point about sick and dying mammals heading for water. However, I believe that not only is this a reasonably rare occurrence (the study you referred to showed Mammalian consumption was 0%), but that the mammals readily available to most turtle keepers are generally non-native. As you said, turtles are opportunistic feeders. If a native mammal happened to die and fall into one of my ponds, I would leave it there for the turtles to eat. But I would not intentionally or regularly feed exotic mammals to my turtles, because it would cause renal failure.

Thanks for the page references in Cann's book. In my opinion, without stating the average percentages of various food types, novice keepers can remain misinformed. If someone says that turtles eat turtles eat plant matter, invertebrates and fish, then the average reader would naturally assume that those proportions were roughly 33% each. However, if it is stated that a particular species of turtle eats plant matter (77.5%) invertebrates (2.6%) and fish (19.9%), then the reader is better informed.

Regards,
Michael.

 

[Hoppa1874]

sorry about Twirtle.. that is very sad... i hope the kids suprise u by handling it ok..
I know my kids have gotten used to the fact.. that sometimes pets die.. and there isnt much u can do about it..except ease the suffering of the animal.. and that is wot i am teaching my kids..
and they are 6 and 7.. and have handled this concept really well..
so i hope ur class takes it well..for ur sake especailly .. nothing worse than a class full of crying kids.. ohno..my worst nightmare.. hehe.. good luck wif all ur other class pets..

 

[froglady]

Thanks

Thank you Hoppa for the kind words....... The kids will be upset, but we all work on the life ends sometime theory and at least I could help him out of suffering..... Animals in the class room are the best way to introduce kids to life cycles etc.... provided they are well housed and maintained.
Cheers,
jessea

 

[crush the turtle]

i rember when my first pet turtle died, his name was crush, he stoped eating and, he started to throw up and the next day when we were gpoin to take him to the vet he past away