Tawny dragons (Ctenophorus decresii)

[Sdaji]

Alright, as long as we're talking UV, does anyone actually KNOW that they need it? Every other person swears black and blue that goannas need it, but I'm prepared to say that I know that they don't, based on swags of annecdotes and also first hand experience. I can't say the same for dragons from first hand experience, but I certainly know people who have said that they've kept, raised and bred dragons under only NEC blacklights. The only way to prove they need it is to try raising them without UV and with a control with UV for comparison, and I've only ever heard of it being done once (for green tree frogs, which for the record, did marginally better without UV) and never for any reptile. Many people use "They had no UV and got sick or died" as evidence for a species needing UV, but I know of many cases of reptiles dying or getting sick with UV and natural sunlight, so using the same logic I could say that UV is deadly to reptiles and must be avoided at all costs.

The line of logic "they get it in the wild so they need it in captivity" is nothing more than absolute complete and utter nonsense.

I'm not wanting to have a go at anyone, and I'm quite willing to say that for all I know dragons may well absolutely require UV, but the vast majority of what I hear about UV is third hand information based on a silly assumption (or similar). Much of what is said about UV I know to be incorrect, so I'm sus about anything I'm not sure about. When it comes to dragons, the 'they need UV' people may well be right and for the record I give my dragons UV, due to my current uncertainty. The propagation of misinformation is really bad in our hobby and we should all be careful to do our best not to be part of it.

 

[Guest]

The guy I got most of my monitors off has been keeping small varanids for over a decade. He says they do not need UV at all, and he has bred successfully hundreds of times.

 

[Simon_Archibald]

but I certainly know people who have said that they've kept, raised and bred dragons under only NEC blacklights.

The NEC Blacklight is among the best of the UV providing globes. if someone has raised dragons under this only, I don't think it's helping the "no UV" side of things. I do however share a similar view about goannas needing UV. But then again, why deny it when you can provide it? I don't know if they need it, I currently do not provide it for my monitors, but I do actually intend moving towards giving it to them soon.

Simon Archibald

 

[Simon_Archibald]

By similar view, I meant I agree with your theory of not needing UV for goannas...but when I say I'm converting to them, I will just be using the Oz Brights because I know how they work and it'll simplify my setup by providing them.

Simon Archibald

 

[hugsta]

According to Dr Peter Harlow, Curator of Retiles at Taronga Zoo and well known herpetoligist UV supplement is extremely important for Agamids as it assists in them breaking down calcium into a useable source for bone strength etc. They get chalky bones and so on. He has seen personal accounts of Agamids not having UV and says it has terrible effects on them ending eventually in death.

 

[Sdaji]

Yeah, as I've said, dragons may well need it, but I've seen nothing to show it, and after proving that skinks and goannas (which are still usually said to absolutely require it) don't, I'm sus about dragons. Interestingly, the misconception has gone so far that in Victoria there is a code of practice regarding keeping reptiles that states all diurnal lizards must be kept under UV because all need it to stay healthy. Clearly the spread of misinformation is a nasty problem.

By the way, I built my first goanna enclosure with a UV fitting, because I wasn't 100% sure at the time. I still give UV to my dragons, but not my skinks.

 

[Simon_Archibald]

Sdaji,
I reckon to settle your own queries, simply do the "experiment" you mentioned of raising one dragon (or 2 or however many you want) with UV exposure and a second dragon (or same number as other group) without it. You can create identical habitats, feed identical food items, and simply don't give any UV access to the second group. Once you see the problems of MBD occuring (and I'm sure it's a case of when, not if) you can surely rest your mind at ease then and make necessary changes if the need is there.

I may be wrong and will happily admit it if I am but I don't think I am because I've seen the effects of this problem when the only variable factor from an otherwise healthy setup was UV exposure.

Simon Archibald

 

[Sdaji]

Yeah Simon, that's the only way to do it, but the two problems that immediately jump into my head are that people will call me cruel, and perhaps not without reason, and also, if they do need it, I'll be torturing some poor lizards. On the other hand, a greater understanding of husbandry will have benefits that far outweigh the suffering of a few lizards, so I'll consider doing it at some stage, but then again (there's always a 'then again' or so it seems) it's likely that no one would take me seriously if I did the experiment anyway. What's worth taking seriously and what is taken seriously is rarely as closely correlated as you'd like.

 

[Simon_Archibald]

Sdaji,
The effects of MDB are quite reversible...we had a little dragon in our care who was able to be rehabilitated back to full health. I don't think it would be cruel as long as there's a point where you are willing to say "enough is enough" and provide them with the light...if you think they need it. Loss of appetite, energy and bone deformities are all problems I'd associate with the disease and as soon as you see any signs, you could just change the setup and you would know for sure then. I don't believe that the animals would suffer because of it and it's certainly not as cruel as other things that have happened...for example, the original wild-caught animals being locked up in boxes that all our animals now come from. If it's for the greater knowledge of the wider community, then I think it outweighs the downside.

I don't think you'll be successful but it would be interesting to see anyway. I've already seen it so won't surprise me if things go bad.

Simon Archibald

 

[lutzd]

it's likely that no one would take me seriously if I did the experiment anyway. What's worth taking seriously and what is taken seriously is rarely as closely correlated as you'd like.

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that I think you should try it and post the results without comment. It's then up to the individual reader to make their own conclusions based on the evidence/facts presented.

 

[Guest]

I have 2 baby beardies.

When i got them home i kept them in their enclosure with no uv lights, just a basic 50w basking spotlight. Within days they had hind leg extension, no energy and were very unhealthy looking.

With the assistance of someone on this site, i provided the uva/uvb flouros and syringe fed them both mashed crickets and supplements. Within days they were running around hunting their own food and just doing what baby beardies do.

So for me, i personally think that they do need uva/uvb for their health.

I also would do a test by supplying some of them the lighting and others not, but im too soft to see some cute little critters suffer just so i can help answer a long (and i guess) never ending argument.

But thats just my little bit of input, if its not relevant or a poohy post, then just disregard it.

Cheers, Alan.

 

[Sdaji]

One day, I'll get around to it (unless someone else does first). I've done it for goannas, skinks and frogs (without controls -but that's not required to prove something is unnecessary) but most people don't take me seriously there. For dragons, it would be much the same - just for my own benefit and the few who choose to take it seriously.

By the way, I should point out that skinks are a diverse group and I don't claim that none need UV, just that some don't (although my guess is that none do).

Anyone know about turtles? I've seen them raised without UV from egg to near adult, rapid growth and very healthy (fed mainly thawed fish by the way, and no sign of deficiencies).

 

[saikrett]

i think that turtles would have a real problem without UV, esspecially soft shell problems

 

[Sdaji]

i think that turtles would have a real problem without UV, esspecially soft shell problems

What's that based on???

 

[chewy22]

hey guys i have bred tawnys and keep a small colony at moment,in fact out of the 20 odd species of reptiles ive kept they the only thing ive had breed which was pretty cool

 

[Sdaji]

Awesome chewy, fess all your husbandry secrets up!
Any info on how you kept them would be hugely appreciated.

 

[chewy22]

weird thing is they bred while in a 3 foot tank with a 40 watt house hold globe as the only heat source,in front of a window which gave him the natural day/night feel. :shock: the female had 4 eggs and now i got about 6 all livin together happily in 4 foot tank with proper UV and 60 watter at 1 end.Weird tho