Turtle Size limits

[ldheav]

Hey everyone

Im thinking of addressing a letter, pushing for size restrictions to be lifted on turtles in Victoria



Im looking for positives and Negs to put into such a letter


ay ideas

just looking for peoples thorts on the issue


cheers

 

[$NaKe PiMp]

theres restrictions in vic? thats wack

 

[ldheav]

bump!!

 

[waruikazi]

What restrictions are there? Do you mean the minimum size for selling them??If that is what you mean i think that a minimum size should be adopted across Australia.

 

[expansa1]

What restrictions are there? Do you mean the minimum size for selling them??If that is what you mean i think that a minimum size should be adopted across Australia.

I think it is ridiculous that a minimum size for turtles should be adopted across Australia. The reason the DSE brought it in was because of all the hype from the US with people contracting salmonella poisoning from baby Red-eared sliders. Most cases were from kids putting their hands in their mouths after holding them without washing them first.

ALL animals have salmonella as part of their normal gut flora so if a snake or lizard or even kitten defecates and then a child picks the animal up and puts their hand in their mouth, they have just as much chance of getting Salmonella poisoining from them too.

If that's what you feel Waruikazi then a minimum size /age should also be adopted across Australia with lizards and snakes as well.

Maybe there should just be a minimum IQ adopted across Australia for parents keeping reptiles allowing their kids to handle animals without washing their hands afterwards!!!!

 

[waruikazi]

I think it is ridiculous that a minimum size for turtles should be adopted across Australia. The reason the DSE brought it in was because of all the hype from the US with people contracting salmonella poisoning from baby Red-eared sliders. Most cases were from kids putting their hands in their mouths after holding them without washing them first.
ALL animals have salmonella as part of their normal gut flora so if a snake or lizard or even kitten defecates and then a child picks the animal up and puts their hand in their mouth, they have just as much chance of getting Salmonella poisoining from them too.
If that's what you feel Waruikazi then a minimum size /age should also be adopted across Australia with lizards and snakes as well.
Maybe there should just be a minimum IQ adopted across Australia for parents keeping reptiles allowing their kids to handle animals without washing their hands afterwards!!!!

I think there should be a minimum size because young turtles seem to have a habit of dieing if you do not get the conditions 100% right. And alot of people who buy turtles are not as into herps as we are and have a much higher chance of not getting conditions right.

And yes i do think there should be a minimum age that all herps are sold at. I personally will not sell a snake before it is atleast 6 weeks old. Time for it to have its first shed and feed atleast four times, if you are advocating not doing this then it says more about you wanting to make a quick buck than caring for your animals. So there you go expansa, my concern is more about the animals than the people who own them.

 

[expansa1]

I think there should be a minimum size because young turtles seem to have a habit of dieing if you do not get the conditions 100% right. And alot of people who buy turtles are not as into herps as we are and have a much higher chance of not getting conditions right.
And yes i do think there should be a minimum age that all herps are sold at. I personally will not sell a snake before it is atleast 6 weeks old. Time for it to have its first shed and feed atleast four times, if you are advocating not doing this then it says more about you wanting to make a quick buck than caring for your animals. So there you go expansa, my concern is more about the animals than the people who own them.

Waruikaza, before you judge me and mention that i want to make a quick buck please let me explain that I donate more than 75% of all turtle sales to AFTCRA Inc. a non-profit organisation. I do not get paid any money for working for the association tirelessly for the last 3 years and I have put in 1000,s of hours doing research, rehab and conservation. I also breed endangered species for release into the wild.

I have been breeding and keeping turtles for over 35 years and provide a customer/after sales service second to none. I have also given away plenty of turtles (just ask SXC_Celly) so it is not about a quick buck. All breeders have a decision to make when selling their reptiles. Are the people buying my reptiles going to be able to look after them properly. We have sold plenty of snakes that have come back to get them feeding again because the buyer just doesn't listen and believes aesthetics to be more important than the info the breeder recommends. So it happens with all reptiles, not just turtles.
To sum up, before you make unintelligent judgements and accusations about people you don't know, think how stupid you're going to look afterwards!

 

[waruikazi]

Waruikaza, before you judge me and mention that i want to make a quick buck please let me explain that I donate more than 75% of all turtle sales to AFTCRA Inc. a non-profit organisation. I do not get paid any money for working for the association tirelessly for the last 3 years and I have put in 1000,s of hours doing research, rehab and conservation. I also breed endangered species for release into the wild.
I have been breeding and keeping turtles for over 35 years and provide a customer/after sales service second to none. I have also given away plenty of turtles (just ask SXC_Celly) so it is not about a quick buck. All breeders have a decision to make when selling their reptiles. Are the people buying my reptiles going to be able to look after them properly. We have sold plenty of snakes that have come back to get them feeding again because the buyer just doesn't listen and believes aesthetics to be more important than the info the breeder recommends. So it happens with all reptiles, not just turtles.
To sum up, before you make unintelligent judgements and accusations about people you don't know, think how stupid you're going to look afterwards!

From your first post you said that minimum sizes are pointless. I do not beleive this is the case in any reptile species, although i think age would be a better determiner, this is what i said.

And yes i do think there should be a minimum age that all herps are sold at... if you are advocating not doing this then it says more about you wanting to make a quick buck than caring for your animals.

What other reasons are there to sell offspring at such a young age than to make money quicker?

And i said IF you are advocating selling them before they are ready to be sold then it says something about you. I stand by that, and if you think that was anything other than a generic statement about all breeders and was all about you specifically expansa than it says something about your ego.

So before YOU go making stupid comments about size limits being ridiculous, listen to what other people are saying about the good they do.

 

[expansa1]

Gordon,
I'm sorry but I ignore stupid comments from people like yourself with no experience with breeding turtles and a general ignorance when listening to people with more experience/knowledge than yourself.

Once the turtles are established and feeding for a couple of months it does not make any difference what age or size they are. They are no less hardy at this stage than they are at 10cm.

So I'm not advocating selling them before they are ready in any way. Only once they are established and are doing well. That does not mean keeping them until the ridiculous size of 10cm as in VIC. I also believe I have more knowledge and experience with turtles to back up my comments about the size limit being ridiculous than say someone like yourself.

So there you go Gordo, I believe the animals lives to be more important than the money and only sell after they are established.

I was saying the 10cm size limit rule is ridiculous and each species hatches out at different sizes anyway, esp. Snapping turtles that hatch at 5cm and reach 10 within the year. Some snake-necked turtles can take 10 years to reach 10 cms, does that sound feasable to you? Would you want to hold an animal for 10 years?
If there's going to be size limits for all reptiles across the board do you think the majority of people will agree to keep Bearded dragons until they reach a snout/vent length of 10cm?

Anyway, unless you are considered an expert in your field and in this case turtles, maybe it's better to not make comments that are considered ridiculous by those that are.
I also wouldn't sell any snake until it is at least 8-10 weeks old and do not offer the first feed until 6 weeks of age. Then we would make sure that they have had at least 4 feeds after that to make sure that they are established feeders. A turtles biggest concern in the wild is it's predators and not the issues of it's ability to feed as with snakes.

It maybe a generic statement of yours but it is an irresponsible one. You are impying that I sell my turtles at such a young age to just make a quick buck even though they are well established.

If you want to continue with this discussion pls pm me and stop boring other members.

 

[cris]

Size limits are crazy...
If we had size limits everywhere in australia turtes would cost many $100s more and IMO a lot of ppl would just catch them instead if that were the case.
I honestly cant see any advantages to the law at all, why have it for turtles but not fish, snakes, mice etc?

Its a case of ignorant descrimination against turtles IMO Good luck ldheav, i hope you can do it somehow.

 

[mblissett]

mind you I am not finding this discussion boring

I am seeing the story from both sides

 

[expansa1]

Size limits are crazy...
If we had size limits everywhere in australia turtes would cost many $100s more and IMO a lot of ppl would just catch them instead if that were the case.
I honestly cant see any advantages to the law at all, why have it for turtles but not fish, snakes, mice etc?
Its a case of ignorant descrimination against turtles IMO Good luck ldheav, i hope you can do it somehow.

A turtle mad friend in VIC (Bernie) told me a couple of months ago that they will be abolishing the 10 cm size law soon to bring them in line with the rest of Australia. The other thing is their original decision was made on the information from the RES and not native species.

Maybe the DEH should have consulted Gordo on this matter!

 

[hornet]

Craig would never put the animals he breeds in danger just to make a quick buck, he stated that he sells them when they are established no matter age or size. I can personally vouch for craigs turtls and his aftersales service and he would have to be the best breeder i have ever dealt with. Not just quality or prices but the work he does for conservation of rare and endangered turtles. Good on ya Craig and Gab

 

[waruikazi]

Gordon,
I'm sorry but I ignore stupid comments from people like yourself with no experience with breeding turtles and a general ignorance when listening to people with more experience/knowledge than yourself.

My comments can't be that ridiculous, you don't appear to be ignoring them very well. Infact they seem to have your nickers quite twisted.

Maybe you didn't read what i said very well or you are picking out the parts of my statements that suit you the best. I would like to see a MINIMUM AGE for the sale of turtles and all other herps. I do not think that the current size limit should be abolished just because you don't like it or you think the reasoning behind it is flawed. From my experience turtles are far less hardy when they are the size of a 20c peice than when they are as round as a beer can. I never said that turtles had the same problems that snakes have regarding feeding, i was commenting on the comment that you made that if there is going to be a size/age limit on turtles then there should be one on snakes and lizards too.

You want to call my comments irresponsible when you come up with this rubbish in your first post,

I think it is ridiculous that a minimum size for turtles should be adopted across Australia

From this you make it sound as though it is ok to sell them straight out of the egg. That might not be what you meant, but it sounds that way.

I may not have the experience you have in keeping and breeding turtles but i do know there are far higher death rates in pet turtles the younger/smaller they are obtained. Can you not understand that a turtle the size of a 20c peice is not as hardy as a larger one? Can you not understand that people with no herp experience buy turtles possibly more than any other herp? Can you not understand that they are quite likely to get their conditions wrong and potentially harm/kill a very small turtle? Can you not understand that everyone does not have the experience you have in keeping turtles and it would benefit both the animal and the keeper if they are not purchased at such a small size as i have seen them being sold in so many pet shops?

 

[Forensick]

i'd be happy if they just made sub 10cm turtle licenced in vic.....

then everyone wins.

 

[expansa1]

My comments can't be that ridiculous, you don't appear to be ignoring them very well. Infact they seem to have your nickers quite twisted.
Maybe you didn't read what i said very well or you are picking out the parts of my statements that suit you the best. I would like to see a MINIMUM AGE for the sale of turtles and all other herps. I do not think that the current size limit should be abolished just because you don't like it or you think the reasoning behind it is flawed. From my experience turtles are far less hardy when they are the size of a 20c peice than when they are as round as a beer can. I never said that turtles had the same problems that snakes have regarding feeding, i was commenting on the comment that you made that if there is going to be a size/age limit on turtles then there should be one on snakes and lizards too.
You want to call my comments irresponsible when you come up with this rubbish in your first post,
From this you make it sound as though it is ok to sell them straight out of the egg. That might not be what you meant, but it sounds that way.
I may not have the experience you have in keeping and breeding turtles but i do know there are far higher death rates in pet turtles the younger/smaller they are obtained. Can you not understand that a turtle the size of a 20c peice is not as hardy as a larger one? Can you not understand that people with no herp experience buy turtles possibly more than any other herp? Can you not understand that they are quite likely to get their conditions wrong and potentially harm/kill a very small turtle? Can you not understand that everyone does not have the experience you have in keeping turtles and it would benefit both the animal and the keeper if they are not purchased at such a small size as i have seen them being sold in so many pet shops?

No it's not the comments it's the fact that you're one of those belligerent know it alls that doesn't know how to communicate without running someone down. As far as I'm concerned your opinion doesn't matter and I could give two hoots about you. Best you write some books etc while you know everything and before you forget it. Ps Love your website-real mature lets all get drunk and and take photo's of this immature behaviour and put it on a website! The only question is, what will you do when you grow up?

 

[waruikazi]

No it's not the comments it's the fact that you're one of those belligerent know it alls that doesn't know how to communicate without running someone down. As far as I'm concerned your opinion doesn't matter and I could give two hoots about you. Best you write some books etc while you know everything and before you forget it. Ps Love your website-real mature lets all get drunk and and take photo's of this immature behaviour and put it on a website! The only question is, what will you do when you grow up?

Well it is good to know you're so much more mature, so much infact that you feel the need to resort to name calling and personal attacks. Thankyou i do put a bit of time into my web page, check out my blog i work pretty hard on that.

I'm yet to see you make a good argument as to why there should not be an age limit on the sale of turtles. You have told me why the 10cm rule will not work in all cases (i didn't know what the limit was because we do not have a limit up here). But you have not said why an age limit would be a bad thing. Please tell me why there should not be an age limit.

 

[grimbeny]

Do you think the age limit for herps should be set at over 1yr waruikazi?

 

[waruikazi]

No i don't. I think you know that there can not be a blanket rule on all herps.

 

[expansa1]

Sorry Gordy, not bothering to waste any more time with you. Just argue it out with the DEH once the law comes in to allow under 10cm turtles to be sold in Vic.
There are no good reasons to keep them back until they are 10cm, like turtles, bearded dragons and other time consuming species. Best for them to go to a home with somebody who is keen and has shown they are keen to look after them properly.
Ps I'm sorry if you WERE one of those unexperienced turtle keepers that lost them through not being given the right information.