venomous snake handling course

[eipper]

Sean,

The use of traps by people removing problem snakes should be avoided. In Victoria it is also illegal to trap native wildlife without a permit and a snake removal permit does not constitute a permit to use a trap. Let alone the use of traps is usually only permitted after your SOP has been approved by an ethics committee.

When you set traps (I use them during some of my surveys) you obviously have an onus to be checking them at least twice daily, let alone the positioning, weather conditions etc.

As far as I am aware the above information is relevant in all states and territories, so the pvc trap would actually be illegal, if let unattended.

Cheers,
Scott

 

[Jackson]

Firstly people please read my comments carefully instead of jumping in half cocked and secondly maybe this topic should be removed to another place as it is starting to drift and taking focus from the original idea.For that I apoligise I was only trying to help!
Last comment from me.

OK lets clarify "The Trap in Question" in this case it is only a recepticle to contain the animal & is not left aimlessly lying around .I have a permit to capture with no restrictions on how listed on my permit.

Here the "trap" is used while the operator/handler is there & so little danger of any harm to the animal. Esentially no different to using a catching net as they serve the same purpose to safely contain the snake for its welfare & that of the handler until release.It is not left unattended I am present at all times.

If you like use it if you don't so be it.

end of transmission.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[snakehandler]

Scott, I have referred the trap concept to the DSE for final say on whether a snake trap is legal in Victoria, as you stated, and as I state when teaching courses, unattended traps are illegal and only people with scientific research permits are permitted to use appropriate traps as approved by an animal ethics committee. I am awaiting a reply from the DSE. As the permit reads in Victoria snakes may only be caught by catching pole, noose or stick.

There are several designs of snake traps out there and Jackson I read your post and understand that you do not leave it unattended, hence the reason that the question has been forwarded to licensing in Victoria.

Jackson just because there is no mention of it in your permit, does not make it legal. You do not have written on your car drivers license that you cannot drive semi-trailers, but you should know that you are not licensed to do so. Ignorance is no excuse, as far as I have been able to ascertain there is no room on any catch and release permit for a snake trap, attended or not, unless approved by an animal ethics committee and the relevant licensing body.

 

[redbellybite]

Sean ,without getting into a HUGE debate ,Jacksons 'trap' as he said its never left unaided ...instead of TRAP as such it is to my understanding used as an 'AID' for difficult situations where all other methods arent able ,so he uses this to help coax and catch ..it doesnt hurt the snake at all and once in, he then places into his bag ..then releases ..this to me is no different from using the TONGS as an aid now and is more favourable, cause we all know the tongs ,if used in the wrong way, can injure snakes...how can Jacksons aid be looked at as wrong ..but TONGS are accepted?

 

[eipper]

Hi all,

Jackson following statements are not aimed at you....

In all reality....if you cannot catch a snake safely without tongs or with one of these aids then I would question whether the course you have attended has given you the appropriate training and that you were indeed worthy of a pass.

As for traps, they have their place I just think that they are not appropriate for domestic use (by snake catchers in urban environments, nor are they legal.

The catch tube that Jackson is using is not really a trap....it is not set or baited and it requires the person to chase the snake into the "hole". The same could be achieved by using a hoop bag that has a triangular as opposed to round throat, with a dark coloured bag. This would actually further minimise handling by not having to empty a snake from a tube into a bag.

As for tongs being wrong.....well I look at it this way....you are basically going have fight on your hands with the snake if you use a set of tongs whether they create pain/injury or not snakes do not like being grabbed by a pair of tongs and as such the snake will be extremely defensive .....they create a misguided sense of safety for the handler.....you want make sure that the snakes length from the head to the grab point is less the the length of the hand to grab point (length of the tongs) or you will be in trouble as a few people have found out.

Cheers,
Scott

 

[redbellybite]

Hi all,

Jackson following statements are not aimed at you....

In all reality....if you cannot catch a snake safely without tongs or with one of these aids then I would question whether the course you have attended has given you the appropriate training and that you were indeed worthy of a pass.

As for traps, they have their place I just think that they are not appropriate for domestic use (by snake catchers in urban environments, nor are they legal.

The catch tube that Jackson is using is not really a trap....it is not set or baited and it requires the person to chase the snake into the "hole". The same could be achieved by using a hoop bag that has a triangular as opposed to round throat, with a dark coloured bag. This would actually further minimise handling by not having to empty a snake from a tube into a bag.

As for tongs being wrong.....well I look at it this way....you are basically going have fight on your hands with the snake if you use a set of tongs whether they create pain/injury or not snakes do not like being grabbed by a pair of tongs and as such the snake will be extremely defensive .....they create a misguided sense of safety for the handler.....you want make sure that the snakes length from the head to the grab point is less the the length of the hand to grab point (length of the tongs) or you will be in trouble as a few people have found out.

Cheers,
Scott

thanks Scott tong topic agreed on ...
....catch tube, well thats exactly what it is a catch tube it isnt a 'trap' no lid on it ...

 

[snakehandler]

RBB, read again;

There are several designs of snake traps out there and Jackson I read your post and understand that you do not leave it unattended

I believe this states here, I understand you do not leave it unattended.

As for the tongs debate, who cares.....if you don't like them, don't use them, if they are illegal then we will stop teaching them, in a world dictated by OH&S and the organizations that I work with on a daily basis, you will understand the need for such instruction, instruction with a warning.....I dont like the technique of pinning, but understand that it has a place, I teach that technique too, we focus our classes on tailing and hooking.....but give all people a chance to experience other techniques as well.

Scott you mentioned to me a study you were planning on...how has that gone??.....I haven't read anything about it.....I have however had Dr. Bryan Fry do an examination of six euthanized snakes used in Pakistan for the purposes of training snake catchers over there, the snakes were tonged by the participants over a period of three days, the snakes were euthanized for venom gland extraction after the exercise and when the internal organs were examined and the ribs examined there was NO internal damage, no bleeding, no broken bones, no injuries what so ever.....

I have seen the damage done by the use of pilstrum tongs...they are brutal....that's why we don't use them......but again...if you don't like them don't use them....I am not complaining about the traps, I actually think that it is a great idea, so much so that I am getting them assessed by wildlife licensing in multiple states to ensure that they are approved and then will seek animal ethics approval......I like to do things in the correct manner!

 

[eipper]

Sean,

The tong stuff is waiting on AE approval before I can go further.

So are you saying that you believe that traps should be used by snake catchers in an urban setting.....I doubt that most catchers would go twice daily at dawn and dusk to check traps, remove them on days of excessive heat, rain or cold are they trained in the handling of bycatch etc etc

I am sure that some would, but I am also sure quite a number wouldn't too.

Cheers,
Scott

 

[snakehandler]

Scott, I have referred the trap concept to the DSE for final say on whether a snake trap is legal in Victoria, as you stated, and as I state when teaching courses, unattended traps are illegal and only people with scientific research permits are permitted to use appropriate traps as approved by an animal ethics committee. I am awaiting a reply from the DSE. As the permit reads in Victoria snakes may only be caught by catching pole, noose or stick.......

.......as far as I have been able to ascertain there is no room on any catch and release permit for a snake trap, attended or not, unless approved by an animal ethics committee and the relevant licensing body.

As you can see in this part of my last post....Traps are not to be left unattended....you should be well aware with your work you have done on trapping of animals that traps are also not to be used on days of extreme weather...as per AE approvals......when we teach a course we teach CURRENT LEGAL methods of capture, this does NOT include traps, and will only include equipment that has been approved for use by an AE committee, hence the question that I asked Jackson....has it been approved by an AE committee, the follow up question then is what are the conditions of that approval, again as you would be well aware there are often conditions on AE approvals.

As you mentioned bycatch is a problem, what else will be found in an unattended trap?? hence the reason they will more than likely not get through approval for the sole purpose of snake catching IF left unattended. But if you read Jacksons post, he states several times that he is in attendance.

Scott where did I say that traps should be used in a domestic setting.....I have stated that the concept has been referred to the licensing body in Victoria for a ruling on their legality.....current permit conditions do NOT exclude it specifically, but also do NOT include it either.....isnt it better to have the body responsible for granting catch and release permits to make the decision on the technique, rather than have people use them illegally!?!?!?!

 

[Titanic_Boa]

I also want to do a snake handling course in newcastle but am having problems finding one

 

[snakehandler]

If 10 people in Newcastle can get together I will run a course there for you....that is a guarantee....I have the permits and we are more than willing to go to Newcastle for a weekend....some of my staff actually lived in the area and would love to head back for a few days....