Incubator vs natural
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saximus
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From my understanding, the main issue is the condition of the female. Laying eggs is hard work and they need pretty good condition just to be able to do that but then add another two months or so of maternal incubation where she still can't eat and you run the risk of her basically killing herself. There is also the fact that the temperature she incubates them at wont be as consistent as an incubator so you are less likely to get a perfect hatch rate.
The benefits I would see though are that it's a lot easier and cheaper than setting up an incubator and it's a bit more "natural" to let her do it
The benefits I would see though are that it's a lot easier and cheaper than setting up an incubator and it's a bit more "natural" to let her do it
I have seen many people successfully let their females maternally incubate with great results and a high occurance of twins. It is up to you and the condition of your female. If you have a BIG healthy and well fed female then she should be fine to maternally incubate.
My choice is using an incubator as it is less stress on the female.
My choice is using an incubator as it is less stress on the female.
GeckoJosh
Almost Legendary
Maternal incubation does not increase the likelihood of twins, the egg when laid either contains twins or not, nothing you can do during incubation will change that.
S
Snowman
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It's also a lot harder to get the right humidity in your enclsoures when leaving the eggs with the female. In the wild they are often in moist logs or under rocks with stable temps and humidity. Many people find maternal incubation a challange with the low humidity we often have.
I prefer using an incubator. You can get your female feeding again and you can control the environment the eggs are incubated in.
I'm entertaining some notions about keeping some diamonds in an outdoor aviary in Victoria. In an attempt to observe/record as many natural behaviours as possible, I'm also hoping to allow the female to incubate her eggs herself. It will obviously depend on a lot of things at the time as to whether or not this goes ahead, but at the moment, my vision is to build a relatively insulated lay box, with enough room for mum and eggs, and include some moist moss and some form of heating (heat pad or cord) set around the mid twenties (only because I'm thinking in the wild, they would be able to select a more "perfect" spot, and due to the limitations of space in the aviary, this "perfect" spot, ie right amount of sunlight, shade and humidity, most likely wont exist). I'm thinking that if mum can get in, then moisture most certainly can get out, so some form of misting as needed will be necessary. I plan also on making the lay box high enough that if I don't catch the youngsters hatching immediately, they they won't be easily able to climb out, however, not so big as to dramatically effect heat and humidity. In a nut shell, I guess i'm talking about an inefficient incubator set at cooler temperatures that Mum can get in also.
I'm pretty much experimenting here, as I haven't been able to track down a lot of info on "natural" incubation, but if anyone has any information to contribute, or can see an error with my proposed system, i'd love to hear about it.
Regards,
Scott.
I'm pretty much experimenting here, as I haven't been able to track down a lot of info on "natural" incubation, but if anyone has any information to contribute, or can see an error with my proposed system, i'd love to hear about it.
Regards,
Scott.
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In my experience: Incubator = 30, Natural = 0.
Hey KingSirloin,
I'm quite interested in what hasn't worked as much as what has. I'm curious what you tried when letting the female incubate. If you have the time, any details would be great, especially what species you were trying this with and what set up you were using.
I'm quite sure I will get a lower hatch rate than when using 100% artificial techniques, but this doesn't bother me in the slightest. I do want to make sure however, that this can be attempted with some measure of success, to see the full process from brumation to healthy hatchlings, without detrimental affects on any of the individuals involved. I'm also not interested in seeing a healthy female waste two months incubating eggs that never had a chance. For this reason, I'd love to hear more experiences, before embarking upon something that is potentially a dumb idea!
Cheers.
Scott.
I'm quite interested in what hasn't worked as much as what has. I'm curious what you tried when letting the female incubate. If you have the time, any details would be great, especially what species you were trying this with and what set up you were using.
I'm quite sure I will get a lower hatch rate than when using 100% artificial techniques, but this doesn't bother me in the slightest. I do want to make sure however, that this can be attempted with some measure of success, to see the full process from brumation to healthy hatchlings, without detrimental affects on any of the individuals involved. I'm also not interested in seeing a healthy female waste two months incubating eggs that never had a chance. For this reason, I'd love to hear more experiences, before embarking upon something that is potentially a dumb idea!
Cheers.
Scott.
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Pythoninfinite
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I've used maternal incubation successfully with a range of Carpets, in their usual enclosure, and without any particular problems. I used a plastic tub as a laying box, with DRY sphagnum moss inside, this tub was placed in a close-fitting cardboard box (for darkness and security) - it obviously had an access hole for the snake to come & go as needed. All I did to maintain humidity was to place a lot of screwed up newspaper on the entire floor of the enclosure and make sure I sprayed it whenever the condensation diminished on the enclosure glass. AS long as there is condensation, the humidity will be pretty high in the enclosure, and certainly high enough to maintain the eggs. Don't put damp substrate into the laying box - it may cause problems and as long as the atmospheric humidity in the enclosure is high you won't need it.
Because eggs are usually incubated through summer, place the enclosure in a location which is constantly cooler than what you want the enclosure to be maintained at - it's much easier to achieve a good stable temp by raising it to what you want, than finding you need to cool it in a heatwave (although covering with damp/wet towels will have the desired effect (difficult if you're at work though!)). Maintain the temp of the incubation box at around 27-28C so the female has less work to do to keep the eggs at their optimum (around 31C) - she will lose far less condition that way. Try to do this by heating the air - using a bottom heat mat or other device may affect the female's assessment of the box's suitability. Heat from below will cause a heat differential within the egg mass, and this is very undesirable. Just make sure the enclosure is on a couple of old newspapers or a bit of foam for insulation.
Having said that, it's obvious that good eggs are reasonably forgiving, and in the wild they must be exposed to a range of variables (temp and humidity principally) and still come through OK. It would be impossible for a wild female python to iron out all fluctuations in these factors.
You might find that the eggs appear to shrivel alarmingly as hatch day approaches, but this is quite normal and won't generally cause problems.
Jamie
Because eggs are usually incubated through summer, place the enclosure in a location which is constantly cooler than what you want the enclosure to be maintained at - it's much easier to achieve a good stable temp by raising it to what you want, than finding you need to cool it in a heatwave (although covering with damp/wet towels will have the desired effect (difficult if you're at work though!)). Maintain the temp of the incubation box at around 27-28C so the female has less work to do to keep the eggs at their optimum (around 31C) - she will lose far less condition that way. Try to do this by heating the air - using a bottom heat mat or other device may affect the female's assessment of the box's suitability. Heat from below will cause a heat differential within the egg mass, and this is very undesirable. Just make sure the enclosure is on a couple of old newspapers or a bit of foam for insulation.
Having said that, it's obvious that good eggs are reasonably forgiving, and in the wild they must be exposed to a range of variables (temp and humidity principally) and still come through OK. It would be impossible for a wild female python to iron out all fluctuations in these factors.
You might find that the eggs appear to shrivel alarmingly as hatch day approaches, but this is quite normal and won't generally cause problems.
Jamie
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Hi Scott. My first attempt at breeding 'anything' was last year with a pair of bredli's. As it was my first, and her first clutch, I thought I would let her incubate them maternally. She produced quite a large healthy looking clutch, but unless the conditions in the enclosure replicate exactly what the incubator does, there'll no doubt be a failure rate. Mine was 100%.
Sure she will coil around them and attempt to warm them, but she can't control the humidity OR air circulation. This still has to be controlled in the enclosure where she lays, almost like turning the enclosure into an incubator. All eggs eventually went mouldy or dried up, even though I had a heat mat and water tray in there to assist.
12 months later I tried again, this time with an incubator. Out of the first female clutch of 16 eggs, I got 13 hatchlings, and the second clutch of 19 eggs produced 17 hatchlings. One went mouldy because it was right at the bottom and didn't get much circulation, the other hatchy died in its egg. I just transferred the clump of eggs from the enclosure to the incubator. They were stuck together when laid and I didn't want to risk tearing the skin separating them. I'm sure in nature they don't get laid in perfect even rows.
I used a Reptapet Incubator I bought on ebay several years earlier. It was set to 31.5 degrees with the fan running continuously and humidity above 90%. Incidentally, the adult female is for sale as I also have another.
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Pythoninfinite
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One of the unknowns with maternal incubation is that you don't generally know if the clutch is fertile because you can't handle them before she gathers them into a pile.. It also runs the risk of a dud egg going bad and contaminating the rest of the clutch, although strong healthy eggs don't usually break down if there's a dud or two in the clutch. I've had very good success with the method I outlined above.
Jamie
Jamie
Damn, I just bought "keeping and breeding australian pythons" edited by Mike Swan, and have been scouring that looking for info. It's pretty great, but I'm yet to find much about maternal incubation. I'll make sure "The Complete Carpet Python" is next in line.
Good stuff KingSirloin! I'm looking at breeding in an outdoor enclosure, so I'll have to do something a bit more radical if I want to observe maternal incubation. I've been breeding gecko's using an incubator quite successfully and am happy to use one if need be, however, I find the whole maternal process to be pretty fascinating, and I guess that's what I want to see. All this info adds up, and I really appreciate it. Thanks again.
Scott.
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