A snake question......

[Bakes]

Dave from reedys reptiles posted a question re BHP and breeding size. That got me thinking (it happens sometimes ) How do you know when your snake is an adult. Is there a set size / weight / age. I know different breeds of dog mature at different times is it the same for reptiles?

 

[soulweaver]

IMO people worry too much about size and age with breeding, put the two snakes together and they will tell you if they are ready or not.

some ppl say that breeding at a smaller age can harm growth and clutch sizes. I beleive that snakes should be rested and there will be no problems.

 

[Rossagon]

Yeah what Souly said, You would have to assume that most reptiles would be somewhat around adult size at breeding age ( although humans can breed in very early teenage years, but would you class this as being adult?), but many snakes and lizards can breed within the first year or two depending on the species. This is what I personally would class as early adulthood with a bit more growing up to do.

 

[Moreliaman]

Personally I wouldn?t put young snakes together for breeding, as an example (because it depends on species) my bredli's were kept apart until the female was 3 years old & about 5-6 foot long. I have known some impatient keepers to have long term health problems & sometimes even sudden death with (always females) snakes that produce clutches too early in life.

So now you have both sides of the coin............up to you to decide now. :wink:

cheers
mark

 

[peterjohnson64]

I think this thread died too quickly. More people should comment. Perhaps with some specific ages for different species. I have no probelm with the responses so far but come on guys. We have 60 responses to tid bits and only three to what I think is a very reasonable and important question.

 

[TrueBlue]

Depends a bit on the species, most pythons can produce a healthy clutch at 3 years, some a year longer. The odd python can breed at 2, well mate at 18 months and hatch at 2, mainly aspidities and anteresia, but as said it can have long term bad effects, not only from the breeding but from being feed to much to often when young to obtain the size to breed at that age.

 

[southy]

well, after reading the other thread on minimum breeding size for bhps, the ones i currently have are at or just bigger than the minimal sizes, so i am choosing to wait another year as the last thing i would want to a sick or dead snake because i got greedy or selfish. its all down to the breeders in the end,like this season my mac accidently copulater with another mac just sharing tanks for 2 weeks until the finishing touches had finished on the other tank and layed and i didn't even want them to as she is too small(or so i thought). shes pulling through fine, getting a healthy size again and time will tell if it had any side affects but even now i still wish she didn't breed, walking on thin ice in some cases

 

[southy]

oh and she was 18 months, prob around 2 ft mark.

 

[Moreliaman]

Producing a clutch of eggs is no walk in the park for a snake, it takes alot of the body's resources ..........and in a young snake thats resources that should be used for growth.

 

[Bakes]

Captivity being an un-natural enviroment do you think pythons at the smaller end of the scale breed because we make them?

If in the wild would the smaller snakes make themselves unavailable to breed? Or perhaps the bigger females in the area suppress the smaller ones. As Moreliaman stated, some keepers have lost females by laying to early in life. If that happened in the wild I would think it would knock a population around a fair bit.

 

[Moreliaman]

I?m sure it does happen in the wild, and I don?t think the loss of the odd female here & there would have a large detrimental effect on a species population, After all this is why high amounts of young are produced to allow for natural predation & other pitfalls like health problems, only a small percentage of offspring actually make it to adulthood to continue the cycle, what people must realise when keeping animals in a captive environment is that they are confined to a very small area, in the wild a female has the opportunity to escape the advances of a male if she feels she isn?t ready for breeding, In the confines of a vivarium she has no choice.
Also like you?ve already said, natural selection usually wins, males usually would prefer a larger female to an undersized one.
I think allot of people underestimate the brain capacity of animals & reptiles, they know when they are ready for mating & some actually advertises the fact by releasing pheromones to attract males, they also know when they need specific vitamins/minerals and will actively seek them out .
With lizards (esp. when breeding) I always put a tiny bowl of calci/vitamin powder in with them so they can regulate their own intake.
Like soulweaver has already said, a resting period would help regain any lost weight etc, But im sure a young snake would know that producing young at such an early stage in her life would place her at a distinct disadvantage to other snakes of the same species that hatched around the same time....and in the wild that?s bad news.

anyone else got a reply ?..............please do...it will keep peter happy !! :lol:

 

[TrueBlue]

southy, they should be fine to breed this season without any probs. They were both raised slowly for the first year to give them time to develop propally, which IMO is the main reason why people lose early breeders, because they have been feed to much when young and NOT had the chance to develop propally.
Beware all you feed young every 5 days people out there.

 

[munkee]

A spotted breeding at the 2ft mark? Thats good to hear my spotteds are going into their first season at almost a metre.
My Theory with the young ones breeding in the wild is that the diet in the wild will not allow the energy spare to breed while it is growing up. So they tend to breed once full grown and the energy intake may then allow spare energy to breed.

 

[bigbing]

Does size really matter ??

 

[herptrader]

The scientific research indicates that size in the only thing that matters. My personal observations support this notion.

For a table of breeding sizes refer to the Appendix in Rick Shine's book: "Australian Snakes". (Available from the Herp Shop - of course)

The indication is that age is only a factor in so much as it is correlated with size ;-)

Does size really matter ??

 

[Moreliaman]

Herptrader, do you not think that would encourage people to excessively feed their snake to get to breeding size quicker ?

A guy here in Wales bought a yearling female Bredli & tried to feed her up to get her to breeding size ASAP, last time I saw it alive the fat deposits were bulging along the sides of it, right up to the vent.
It died before it ever produced anything........post mortem - heart failure ! .............ive got reptile books here from 1985-6 and most im going to throw away because the information is obsolete & in another 20 years time im sure we'll be throwing away books in print now because of this.

 

[pugsly]

Doesnt it depend on the species, I know of breeders who can get there childreni up to size in 12 months! But they also say Bredli wont breed or other morelia till they are about 3 years old onwards..

 

[Moreliaman]

Apparently its size & thats it pugsly, im sticking to what ive done for the last 15 years ! :wink:

 

[herptrader]

That is a different question to the one originally asked.

From my observations hatchlings do well getting a bit of size on them in the first year but it varies with species. Black Headed pythons (and presumably womas also) can grow a lot in their first year and sill have their skin look flabby on them.

I think the real trouble with obesity in snakes comes after they have attained breeding size. When mine are at this stage I still feed them big meals but much less often. I think I only fed my children's pythons 5 or 6 times last year but they were seem very healthy and produced their best clutch of eggs ever.

Alas these statements are based on my observations and intuition only. I am not aware of any scientific study looking at this.

Herptrader, do you not think that would encourage people to excessively feed their snake to get to breeding size quicker ?

A guy here in Wales bought a yearling female Bredli & tried to feed her up to get her to breeding size ASAP, last time I saw it alive the fat deposits were bulging along the sides of it, right up to the vent.
It died before it ever produced anything........post mortem - heart failure ! .............ive got reptile books here from 1985-6 and most im going to throw away because the information is obsolete & in another 20 years time im sure we'll be throwing away books in print now because of this.