Reptiles in NSW Pet Shops - The Debate

OK.

This is obviously a highly controversial issue. However one which will keep on popping up and will inevitably change (hopefully) in the near future.

Personally, I think Reptiles DO need to move to Pet Shops, and more specific, Reptile shops. There are a number of them around already (Exotic Pets, The Reptile Shop etc) and to move this hobby forward change needs to occur.

Now before I hear all the horror stories about Reptile shops interstate and the often terrible conditions some shops house there Reptiles. Let me first state that if this is to occur, it needs to be done correctly. The other states have led the way in providing an example of how 'not to' do things.

I believe that with tight regulation, proper licensing, mystery shoppers assessing Fauna Dealers this can be achieved successfully.

In the trade of birds for example, you can hold a Fauna Dealers license, issued a certificate etc etc, there is a list of approved species which are available to be traded by dealers which basically are species 'traditionally traded by keepers'.

Well, why can't we come up with the same thing in the Reptile scene.

Surely we can also come up with an approved list of the traditionally traded species and they should be able to be traded.

Now, there are obviously pros and cons about this, and I would like to here all the cons. Because I will personally (if need be) work to come up with solutions to the cons. I think it is very managable.

If dealers can hold Reptile Dealers Liceses. Be PERSONALLY responsible for the animals in the shops, with heavy fines for things such as:

i) Improper advice
ii) Unsanitory enclosure conditions
iii) Sick or unhealthy animals
etc etc

Now this may just be creating more legislation sure, but there is not going to be thousands of these dealers liceses given out. I would expect there to be a rigorous application process before anything i handed out.

So, whats holding us back.

Well, $$ obviously, NPWS are at a strech as it is, and this would need funding to get off the ground. But this is not impossible.

I have been looking at the legislation today (actually doing some legal work today lol) and I think that amendments to the Act can be made and be successful.

Section 124 of the NPWA 1974, states:

“This licence authorises the person named above to exercise or to carry on the business of dealing in live protected birds of traditional aviary species of native parrots, cockatoos, finches, pigeons, doves and quail at the registered premises shown above.”

Now..

Why can’t this be transferred across to read:

“This licence authorises the person named above to exercise or to carry on the business of dealing in live protected Reptiles of traditionally traded species of native pythons, colourbrids, dragons, lizards, skinks, and monitors at the registered premises shown above.”

But further:

“The premises owner and/or manager takes full responsibility to the care, maintenance, and well being of all Reptiles held on license, at the named premises. The owner will comply with Section …. Of the Act which provides a list of the named species which may be held under the Reptile Dealers License. The owner will comply with the requirements as to housing, enclosure stock, licesing and advice as set out in the Reptile Dealers License Guidelines”

Then,

Why not draft up a series of guidelines written by our most experienced keepers to provide information to shop owners on set up and maintence of the Reptile coming through the shop.

Each Owner who wishes to distribute Reptiles must have at least HALF the staff in store at any one time a Reptile Keeper License themselves. At no time will they be able to give dodgy advice, nor undertake in the sale of Reptiles to un-licensed persons. Nor purchase Reptiles from un-licensed persons.

They key to stop this is the penalties, if they are pi$$ week, then it will fall to crap immediately, if they are strict as to actualy DETER this practice, then it can work.

Each owner might have to be subject to 6 monthly inspections, with the possibility of mystery shoppers also. Also, the attaining of a Reptile Dealers License will require the applciant undertake a Course in the care of Reptiles, hell even sit a test or have practical ‘situations’ to see if they pass. Again, this means more funding, and for owner to actually WANT to go through this will be another thing. But it must be mandatory and consistent.

I think this is all possible..

If we could come up with a 'Guideline' of sorts which covers things such as

1. Approved Species List - Snakes - Lizards - Monitors - Turtles and Frogs
2. Housing Requirements - for each of the above
3. Number of Stock to be allowed to be held at any one time
4. Hygene and Health requirements
5. Feeding
6. Even a price chart so people arent going to be ripped off
7. The selling or purchasing of Reps to un-licesed persons
8. Required Inspections
9. Penalties
10. A signed contract by the applicant

Also address things such as handling in the store, escape proof enclosures. No elapids etc etc

NSW are being left behind because of stupid legislation which CAN and SHOULD be changed IMO.

I mean come on.. As if there aren't commercial breeding activities already going on, as if we all sell our 'excess' stock through solely the use of Herpetological Societies. THere are so many parts of the Act which are useless and out of date we NEED to change it.

I don't understand why people want reptiles in petshops, even with the strictest standards it encourages impulse buying, there is little if any quarantine, advice given out there is usually terrible and due to the need of a markup reptiles will always be cheaper from a breeder.

I'll be a mystery shopper.
Reptile workcover.

I would not mind seeing them in shops , but ....
They should only be allowed for sale in a "reptile" shop , not your normal pet shop .
The person/persons selling must be a licenced breeder , not a 15 year old kid that has no clue about reptiles , as you find in most pet shops ( no offence if you are one of the few who have a clue ) .

piaa (pet industry association ..) are close this being done. However they are also complaining that private breeders shouldn't be allowed to be commercial for the same reasons we don't want then to be commercial. £ it will happen and is closer than people think. However as private breeders we also need to get in the ear of npws and tell then what we want. Or else they'll get all the say and the people breeding the reptiles will be left on the way side.

sorry about no paragraphs but i'm on a mobile phone that i cant put line breaks in.

Well here is a start to the no pet shop debate

Hi Pugs

nothing personal just several points.

Birds are a more acceptable form of pet in mainstream society, I don't think that reptliles shouldn't be accepted it's just that Adam and Eve have given my fav's a bad name.

I said my fav's and believe that they should be restricted in some way. Currently you need to apply for a licence and then wait for it and then you may purchase an animal. Birds on the other hand can be bought on a whim, this is all species held in a pet shop even and Eclectus Parrot which do not eat much seed, they are a fruit eater, also lorrikeets are very pretty but a 6 year old's parents can buy a young varied and have no idea that it will shoot out liquid as poo.

Bird's do not need sunlight to survive nor do they need calcium for their bones (it is recommended but all of their essential requirements are given before a shopper can buy one)

Birds can become humanised and not recognise their own species, some even not desiring to mate when presented with the opportunity, but a reptile will never truly become humanised and will always be desiring a companion when it is the relevant time. (I have had some very very tame reptiles in my 28 yrs of experience)

Most of the birds that are on the freely traded list survive on a seed only diet, reptiles (and also birds in reality) need a varied diet that contains the necessary vitamins and minerals for their survival.

If they are allowed to trade then all employees must be liable to the same restrictions, otherwise it is easy to say an unknowledgable person is at fault.

Another con is most of us "old-timers" do not like the idea at all.

Thanks

Steve

In NSW it is virtually impossible to make an impulse purchase unless you are ALREADY a licenced keeper. And then it is no different to going into APS, Petlink, RDU or even you rlocal herp meeting and making an impulse purchase.

Yes, many stores in Vic have terrible reputations. funny thing. The pet shops in NSW are telling the Govt that it is the breeders who are dodgy. Go figure! BUT.... we need to be diligent with the stores.

So are you telling me that if John Weigal or Troy Martin started selling herps in a shop their standards would drop? No, I would doubt it. So, firstly, we need to ensure that only COMPETENT people can run these stores. that means high licensing costs (to cover inspection staff) and fewer stores. GOOD! Its like high nite club entry fees - designed to keep the riff raff out. You are either keen to do it and pay through the nose for the priviledge or you dont.

As for the high price of reptiles in pet shops (and this form a man who paid $500 for his first pair of EWD's in 1997) I personally dont see that as an argument. If us breeders are allowed to advertise and sell commercially then the pet shops will have their work cut out to sell much stock if they are too dear. BUT... these people are trying to feed their families from the profit they make. I merely sell to pay for rats and parties.

And maybe a good quality reptile shop would merely have "display" stock and if you wanted an animal then it could be bought in for you. For example, Troy may have a hatchy diamond of mine on display. Someone says they want it but instead are told that one is not for sale but we can show you a similar animal tomorrow. They could even have a viewing room similar to what we had at mac herps.

Maybe the initial step for NSW to take is to offer "breeders" or "commercial" licences where we are allowed to advertise our animals and sell on a commercial basis. if that doens't work then we stay out of pet shops all together.

Oh, and please no one bring up the tax argument. The tax office couln't give a hoot whether your business is legal or not. If you are operating as a business then you pay tax. Whether that business is legal or not.

We have a price chart for birds so that for reptiles would be good. But breeders have to be willing to sell their reps to pet shops for less than what they're worth so pet shops don't have to put such high mark up on them.

And Pugs I like the idea of inspections but they have to be unannounced so dogdy ones don't hae a chance to put on a false front.

I am not in favour of pet shops having them but if its gonna happen I'll support anything that means the reps are well looked after.

im with you dickyknee

IMO the queensland species list actually seem fairly sensible i would leave all geckos out of it though and include carpet species, gtf's and maybe some skinks that are easy to look after like sandswimmers.

IMO there should also be an advanced licence that is more heavily restricted, say maybe to ppl with atleast 5 years experience or something and have it open to all species.

I agree with junglepython 2. Impulse buying is a big problem and it happens with birds, dogs and pretty much any other pet, so without doubt it would also happen with reptiles.

Quarantine is the same issue, pet shops don't usually quarantine their animals as this would bring in high costs for the facility and then the potential problem of treatment, which also costs money and loss of sales.

I think that in general, standards of knowledge and experience of sales people in pet shops are really low, not everywhere, but in a lot of cases. Many do not admit to not knowing anything about certain things but yet continue to sell. If a person that is just a novice is misinformed, the reptile is guaranteed to suffer.

If pets, whether dogs/birds or reptiles are purchased from a breeder that has knowledge on particular species as well as experience, they are much more likely to end up in good homes where they will be taken care of with the guidance and instructions of that breeder. They can take right steps to properly care for the animal.

Of course it would be nice to walk into a store and see some reptiles, but I think that if we look at all the problems that would arise from this, it would definitely not be beneficial for the reptiles in comparison to if they were sold by a breeder.

Why not make first time / new owners of reptiles do a small course before purchasing , that way they will get the correct info and it will stop impulse buying IMO

I know that we are having a debate on selling reptiles in pet shops but pet shops in NSW are already selling reptiles!

All you have to do is get yourself a Reptile Keepers licence, do a course provided by the breeder or pet shop in the pet store and you can purchase your reptile from that breeder on the day after the completion of a course. When you book for a course you are provided with a list of available species and prices, you make a selection of the specie you want and pay for it on the day of the course and go home with a new reptile- from the pet shop.

peterjohnson64 said:

......I merely sell to pay for rats and parties.

And maybe a good quality reptile shop would merely have "display" stock and if you wanted an animal then it could be bought in for you. For example, Troy may have a hatchy diamond of mine on display. Someone says they want it but instead are told that one is not for sale but we can show you a similar animal tomorrow. They could even have a viewing room similar to what we had at mac herps.

Maybe the initial step for NSW to take is to offer "breeders" or "commercial" licences where we are allowed to advertise our animals and sell on a commercial basis. if that doens't work then we stay out of pet shops all together.

........

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Absolutely agree with this. I would love to have my beautiful port mac diamond on display but just bring in animals as ordered.

And advertise on shop windows, I could handle that. Still not sure of my thouhts on reps in shops and I Own a pet shop. I have many enquiries every day of ppl wanting some type of reptile. I have a list behind my counter of ppl who have reps to sell, or breeder contacts. So the demand is there. I just not sure how to deal with customers because a normal buisness sells to make money. So what happens to the animals. I can't pick and chose who gets to buy the animals and that can lose money for my business. So i need more help in this area.

Impulse buying ? well then for all first time purchases have a 3 week or so cooling of period.I have long believed that for our hobby to move forward the legal commercial sales of reps is needed .But i dont want to see any old pet shop flogging herps and dodgy info i think specialty stores are needed that are under the strictis conditions. A zero tolerance approach were a set of criteria is set out and has to be met to the letter or your permit to sell is revoked immediatley.

it will happen soon. as peter said, impulse purchase wouldnt be that big an issue cause you need a license.
if someone came in and wanted a herp had a license etc....but NO setup... the shop doesnt have to sell them the herp

dickyknee said:

Why not make first time / new owners of reptiles do a small course before purchasing , that way they will get the correct info and it will stop impulse buying IMO

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Dickyknee - 100% with you on this one - except i think it should be a complusory part of getting your licence in the first place - you should have to do some kind of course and at the very least pass a quick written test (like driver's licence) to prove you have some kind of clue...