Reptiles in NSW Pet Shops - The Debate

[Sdaji]

You need a license in Victoria, impulse buying is a big problem there. It's supposedly regulated, but the shops get away with murder, and the reptile specialists are usually the worst offenders.

If you're really keen about reptiles, you'll get them without shops. Shops will attract new people into the hobby, sure, but they'll be people who probably shouldn't be getting into it anyway. Other than providing a gap between breeders and pet owners, a massively increased opportunity for diseases and mites to be spread and the opportunity to buy animals which are subjected to extra stress at an increased price, pet shops have little to offer the average reptile keeper. I suppose the shop owners will have an easier time poaching and offloading lower quality animals to a typically less experienced market, and there is money to be made. Progress can't be stopped, it's probably going to happen. Hooray for economics!

 

[dickyknee]

Dickyknee - 100% with you on this one - except i think it should be a complusory part of getting your licence in the first place - you should have to do some kind of course and at the very least pass a quick written test (like driver's licence) to prove you have some kind of clue...

I agree 100% , all new license applications should be made to do a basic test , how many times do you see on here a new owner that asks a question like :my new snake is arriving tomorrow , what size cage should i put it in " or similar ..........

 

[peterjohnson64]

Not probably mate. I reckon it is a lot closer than the hobby realises. The sad thing from our point of view is that we have been totally left out of the negotiations and will be getting nothing like what we would want.

I see this in politics all the time. People are totally against something and end up getting the worst of what they wanted because of an unwillingness to compromise. We wil probably now get the worst situation from the hobby's point of view because for years we have merely said "no way" and have now been defeated by the policial and financial clout of the pet industry.

 

[Sdaji]

There's nothing stopping the NSW herp groups from getting involved with drawing up the regulations if pet shops are to be introduced - they should demand to be involved and will have no problems with it.

I was involved with the Victorian system for years, it was a constant push from the shops to introduce more relaxed laws (which would more easily allow them to poach and make impulse sales). Saying "Yeah, okay, you can have what you want" was never going to help and neither will it in NSW. If the NSW herp groups are firmly against shops, you'll be able to keep them away, but clearly the NSW community is divided, which is a shame.

I've seen it happen, once they get their foot in the door they're just going to want more and more. Saying "if we're involved in getting the initial system in place we'll be able to make it better" makes no sense. You're just going to let them get their initial foot hold, and that's exactly what they need. Sure, a very small minority may actually do their best to run legitimate businesses, but the majority won't, and allowing a few people to make an honest profit by acting as middle men, bringing animals from multiple origins into a small space, housing them temporarily in high-traffic areas without quarantine, stressing them out before going out to news homes with owners who never knew their breeders/previous owners is no reason to allow the majority to get away with all of the horrors we see in Victoria - just take a look at some of the threads we've seen over the last few months and years if you want to know what to expect!

 

[cris]

Hi Pugs

nothing personal just several points. hey dunno, nothing personal just tearing your arguements to shreads

Birds are a more acceptable form of pet in mainstream society, I don't think that reptliles shouldn't be accepted it's just that Adam and Eve have given my fav's a bad name. Birds in general naturally fly most(not all) are deprived of this(atleast to some extent) in a variety of cruel ways, some simply kept in cages way too small others phisically disabled to be turned into a domestic item.


Bird's do not need sunlight to survive nor do they need calcium for their bones (it is recommended but all of their essential requirements are given before a shopper can buy one)
Most snakes a most likely the majority of herps dont need sun anymore than a human. A good diet is all they need.


Birds can become humanised and not recognise their own species, some even not desiring to mate when presented with the opportunity, but a reptile will never truly become humanised and will always be desiring a companion when it is the relevant time. (I have had some very very tame reptiles in my 28 yrs of experience)
This is a plus as they dont need anywhere near the same amount of attention, i dont believe that depriving a bird of contact with another of its own kind is something to boast about. It would still have hormones etc. it would just be to confused to know how to root a human or bird(im just guessing on that lol) did you ever think about fish cant say i have ever seen a humanised fish lol

Most of the birds that are on the freely traded list survive on a seed only diet, reptiles (and also birds in reality) need a varied diet that contains the necessary vitamins and minerals for their survival.
Snakes will live long happy lives on a diet of a single type of rodent

The only valid point you made IMO was that reptiles are your favorites and you think they deserve more than other classes of animals. This is about the only good arguement ppl have against it(apart from those who want petshops completely banned). Sdaji, you should listen to this point even though i have probably debated this with you in about 10 other threads already :lol:

Like i have said countless times before having petshops being able to sell reptiles isnt the problem its the lack of law enforcement cracking down on dodgy shops that is to blame. I have never seen a shop with unhealthy reptiles without plenty the other animals being poorly cared for as well. Reptiles simply arnt any harder to look after than other classes of animals, many fish are far more difficult to keep... blah blah blah etc.

 

[BJC-787]

i have heard that it could happen as soon as the end of next year

i think if they put up a list of acceptable species, limit number that can be held at any one time, has to be someone working their that has knowledge of reptiles.

the impulse buying wouldn't be as bad as in other animal as you must already have a licence.

 

[dragons75]

Not probably mate. I reckon it is a lot closer than the hobby realises. The sad thing from our point of view is that we have been totally left out of the negotiations and will be getting nothing like what we would want.

I see this in politics all the time. People are totally against something and end up getting the worst of what they wanted because of an unwillingness to compromise. We wil probably now get the worst situation from the hobby's point of view because for years we have merely said "no way" and have now been defeated by the policial and financial clout of the pet industry.

Well let our voice be heard now Who would i contact to voice my opion ?And how do you spell opion ?

 

[Sdaji]

Policing the shops doesn't work, just have a look at the Victorian pet shops, and no doubt some of the NSW pet shops which sell other animals. Getting the RSPCA involved hurts us even more, as it only gives them ammunition in their attempts to ban the private keeping of reptiles entirely. In the USA they are currently having huge battles with animal welfare groups which are pushing for tighter restrictions on reptile keeping, and in some areas they've been quite successful. At the recent reptile expo in Daytona there was a meeting where hundreds of people listened to some of the country's most well known and respected reptile people give what sounded like crisis talks about these animal welfare groups and the possibility of them putting massive restrictions on reptile keeping, and this is in a country where reptile keeping and selling in shops has been huge and mainstream for many years now. As we all know, watching what happens over there is a good way to predict what is just around the corner for us. When the government relies heavily on the RSPCA to take care of animal welfare matters, having them look after animal abuse in reptile specialty shops puts us in a very nasty predicament. In Australia, much more than over there, poaching and illegal exotics are very hot issues which are taken very seriously by the government, and these are the things shops are notorious for.

So, for all of these problems, what do shops have to offer us which makes the need so great? Stress for animals, quarantine issues, higher prices and profits for a small number of shop owners... great!

 

[cris]

So, for all of these problems, what do shops have to offer us which makes the need so great?

Simply getting more ppl into the hobby and changing reptiles from shovel/shotgun prey into something ppl see the same as normal animals. More power to the herp community to deal with those like the RSPCA, PETA and other similar scum. These group have increasing power as you can see from what you said about the US, think about how powerful reptile keepers are here compared to over there. Hey you are giving me ammo to argue against your points, thanks

The simple fact is at the end of the day its not really any differant to selling fish in shops. All the same types of issues as with reptiles its just they have been considered mainstream for a long time. Its goin to happen anyway, might aswell try and work with it IMO. As more and more ppl have access to the internet and stuff the bad business that neglect stock etc. will lose out in the long run anyway.

You also like to bring up the issues of poaching and selling exotics, is there any evidence to suggest this doesnt take place on a similar level with private keepers? if its the same then its a bit hypocritical to want to ban one and not the other.

 

[cris]

I see this in politics all the time. People are totally against something and end up getting the worst of what they wanted because of an unwillingness to compromise. We wil probably now get the worst situation from the hobby's point of view because for years we have merely said "no way" and have now been defeated by the policial and financial clout of the pet industry.

Yes this is a major problem with ppl, just like kids fighting over a toy either one gets it and the other cries or they rip it in half and fall on their as.

 

[pugsly]

Im glad this thread took off, its not like an APS thread which is serious and relevant actually stay up in the view..

Sdaji, I dont agree with . "Shops will attract new people into the hobby, sure, but they'll be people who probably shouldn't be getting into it anyway"

Sure you will get people who probably shouldnt be involved, but I think it will be a great thing, and the only way the hobby will move forward. There is too much secrecy and ignorance about keeping reptiles, 99% have no idea you can even keep a Reptile, and thats the reason we are still stuck in the "A good snake is a dead snake" stage..

Pete, I am worried about your concern also, that what is being done will probably be done wrong, that there not getting the general herp community involved. If we can come up with a guide or regulations and put that to NPWS then lets damn well do it! Ive began drafting it anyway, worth a shot.

So I am glad it is happening, but I hope it is done properly. Offer Reptile 'Dealers' Licesing to a limited amount of people, subject to strict regulations and harsh penalties and I think it will work.

 

[Sdaji]

Pet shops give the 'animal welfare' groups ammunition against us, here and over there. The type of person who is going to be very keen with their reptiles is going to find out how to do it, regardless of whether or not a shop is there shoving reptiles in their face. If someone needs a reptile shoved in their face in order to be convinced that they should keep one, they probably shouldn't be keeping it.

Reptiles and fish aren't the same thing. Incidentally, fish in shops have a very high mortality rate, I helped run an aquarium business for over ten years, I've seen fish in farms, wholesalers' warehouses, shops and of course, home aquaria. The death rate between each and at each stop in between farm and home is very high. The difference between a shop with a lot of dead fish on display and one with only live fish in the tanks is mostly to do with how quickly the dead ones are removed. Many fish have thousands of babies each, and it is just inevitable that even with the best efforts most will not survive. Fish and reptiles really aren't comparable, and there are some big issues with fish being in shops, but they're not the issue here.

Why do we need to have the attitude of "it's going to happen anyway, so let's help them along"? People are going to poach, people are going to steal, people are going to do all manner of bad things, that doesn't mean we should allow it. If it does come in it should only be because we were unable to stop it, and then we can work to make it as clean as possible. There is no reason at this point to say "let's introduce a system which is as clean as possible".

If you think that the internet will cause bad shops to lose business, you are quite naive (I don't say that in an insulting way, I mean it literally). Even after being charged with poaching, dealing exotics and having dead reptiles on display over a period of years, some shops still get a lot of high praise on this site. The shops which are utterly hideous still make a fortune, because having sick animals on display is a brilliant way to make sales - people try to 'save' the animals, so the store gets more in, neglects them, they are also 'saved' and the cycle continues. This is equally true with cats, dogs, fish, etc etc.

There is no doubt that a higher proportion of animals in shops than animals in private sales are poached. Yes, poaching is carried out by some private individuals, but knowing about what goes on in the Melbourne shops it utterly disturbing, and when you consider the ease of doing it when you have a commercial license, and the money there to be made, together with human nature, it isn't surprising. There's no reason to give them this opportunity.

 

[pugsly]

Again, regulation is key.

There are ways to stop all the negative points which come out of this debate. All of them achievable. but not without funding, and certainly not if its not done properly in the first place.

So Sdaji your saying, bugger trying to influence it a little and making sure its done right, we will just sit back, let it come in and turn out like the fine examples in Melbourne?

Sure if someone really wants them enough they will find them, but the argument for 'impulse buying' is rubbish. As stated, you can't just walk in a buy one on the spot without the license. Well you might very well be able to but not legally.

The way to ensure this works, is to cover all bases before it happens.

I think the highest priority is Desease, the issue of Quarrentine is key for me. Perhaps we could stop shops purchasing from John Do who walks in with a snake he doesnt want anymore, and have some sort of approved list of sellers, I dont know. But this is why its up for debate.

 

[-Peter]

whether pets shops can sell herps or not isnt the issue. it will happen. Its what we do to make sure we, keepers and breeders, dont get left in the cold like in Qld and WA. As the producers of the product and the holders of the primary rescourse we need to take control of the market and not have it dictated.
On the issue of illegalities- they aren't our concern. There is crime involved in the fringes of every legitimate industry. Crimes involving herps are the concern of the appropriate authorities and the criminals.

 

[wokka]

We are having our selves on to think only pet shops do bad things with reptiles. I am sure youv,e all been offerred of license reptiles, seen poor standards of keeping and traumatised animals in private collections. If a commercial license costs serious money , say $50,000 and breach of conditions leads to forfeiting the license I think the holders would tow the line. Along with the dollars commercial applicants should demonstrate ability which will reatate to the period,variety and numbers of reptiles the license applicant and staff have kept. In todays world of technology it should be possible for commercial license holders to go on line and do some of the work for NPWS as far as tranfers advices etc which gives a real time record so there can be no doctoring of records later. This might free up NPWS staff to check shops although I believe the market will do that.

 

[Colin]

whether pets shops can sell herps or not isnt the issue. it will happen. Its what we do to make sure we, keepers and breeders, dont get left in the cold like in Qld and WA. As the producers of the product and the holders of the primary rescourse we need to take control of the market and not have it dictated.

excellent point Peter

 

[pugsly]

Yes, thats the point.

We NEED to be involved and not kept in the dark, but it seems its a little late..

 

[aussiekev.n.s.w]

I have one thing to say how many people out there think that reptiles are missunderstood and unnecceraly feared? I think if reptiles where allowed to be sold in reptile shop's that it would help majourly in the fight to create a better understanding of these great animals to the general public

 

[Lucas]

There is a BIG difference between a reptile shop and a pet shop. I would happily take in advice etc from exotic pets but I wouldn't trust a thing the kid in Bates pets told me.

I'm all for reptiles in shops but I feel that they need to be reptile specialist stores, not a bird and fish shop that wants to cash in on the growing popularity of reptiles. All in all, the pet store just won't have the knowledge or experience when it comes to reptile husbandry.

I've seen countless animals come out of pet stores with serious health issues that could have been easily prevented but due to a lack of knowledge and cutting corners they now have a tank of sick turts, twisted blueys etc. These stores then take $15 off the price and sell them off. Dust their hands of them.

As previously mentioned they should be regulated.

If the operators of the shop can prove that they have the knowledge / experience / facilities to adequately care for these animals and that the staff have sufficient knowledge then let them go for it.

Let pet stores deal with puppies and kittens.

 

[pugsly]

Gillsy,

Can you pm any info about this pet industry association mob and who they are etc?

This isn't something that should be brought in without the concerns and issues out on the table first to get it right.

Its frustrating as all hell that whoever these people are are apparently the voice for the general herp community and its almost certain to fail. Whether once in stores or not. There are so many issues to consider and get out on the table for discussion. I think we need to be involved.

There are several people here which should DEF be involved with this PIAA group, not only to ensure that it is done right, but to also keep us informed of what is going on..