Hybrid vens

[Elapidae1]

This was raised on an international forum so I thought I would bring the question over here.

I know this a contentious issue with Pythons so what about with our Elapids?

I don't know much about natural intergrade zones within the Elapid family though have heard of the possibility with Acanthopis sp and seem to recall the possibility within the Pseudonaja genus. We have an overlap of P. mengdeni and P. affinis in Perth though as far as I'm aware they don't hybridise or at least not for certain.

Would it be irresponsible in captivity?
Is it a potential environmental risk?
Could it make venom toxicity worse or even harder to treat in the event of hybridisation between snakes with predominately hemotoxic and myotoxic venoms?
Is it even possible with Australian Elapids?

Please add your own thoughts/concerns, and lets keep it civil.

 

[Tassie97]

hmm this would be very interesting, I will stay tuned

 

[-Peter]

Personally, I dont think there is a market and wont be for some time. A difference in this topic though is these are distinct species unlike the Morelia debate which mostly revolves around interbreeding one species.
Acanthophis would be the obvious one to go for if you were after morphs because the breed readily and are live bearing.

 

[Elapidae1]

What do you mean by distinct species Peter? that the lines between true species of the Morelia genus are more Blurred while elapids are much more distinct?

 

[-Peter]

What do you mean by distinct species Peter? that the lines between true species of the Morelia genus are more Blurred while elapids are much more distinct?

In the sense that the majority of Morelia debate revolves around spilota, yes. The elapids you mention as an example are distinct species, not locality variations/ssp.

 

[GeckPhotographer]

In the sense that the majority of Morelia debate revolves around spilota, yes. The elapids you mention as an example are distinct species, not locality variations/ssp.

My elapid knowledge is fuzzy, but isn't there some debate in the Acanthophis area about species? How many there are, whether there is even more than one, how to define them?

 

[-Peter]

My elapid knowledge is fuzzy, but isn't there some debate in the Acanthophis area about species? How many there are, whether there is even more than one, how to define them?

Theres the hawkei but the other 4 are currently established species.

 

[Elapidae1]

Yeah of course, I'm embarrassed now that I had to get you to spell it out.

I know little about genetics and reproduction between species (except that some define species as being unable to reproduce young outside of their species) so I imagine that their is probably little chance of successfully hybridising most of our Elapids.
I'm wondering if anyone has reproduced Notechis from the East and West.

Are Elapid keepers in Australia generally purists?

I believe there is work currently being done suggesting up to 8 definite species may exist within Acanthopis

 

[GeckPhotographer]

I believe there is work currently being done suggesting up to 8 definite species may exist within Acanthopis

And someone will argue black and blue there should be only one, apparently they can all interbreed (not my claim, just what I hear).

 

[Wrightpython]

I tried breeding a brown with a black. Didn't work.
Can you cross anteresias with morelias ?
its hard to cross different genus let alone species, many elapids eat each other so unless you do artificial insemination I can't see it working next question is why would you want to, most elapids owners are purists and even area purists.

 

[r3ptilian]

There was a clutch of Western x Tassie tigers a few years ago (accidental breeding apparently), I also had a friend that had a Colletts x Spotted black snake. If it was to be done with Acanthophis I'd be all for a scale-less black headed Wellsii.

 

[GeckPhotographer]

its hard to cross different genus let alone species

Of course it's harder to cross separate genera than species in the same genus they are further removed.

 

[junglepython2]

I have heard rbbs x spotted blacks happening on numerous occassions. (not seen definite proof) One live bearing and one egg laying too.

 

[Elapidae1]

And someone will argue black and blue there should be only one, apparently they can all interbreed (not my claim, just what I hear).

Yes but are they fertile offspring?

Regardless of where people sit in regards to what defines species, ssp etc most will still have an opinion on hybridising wether it be across species or just locales within the same species.
Considering that venom composition and toxicity can differ across the range of a single species I think that discussion on breeding across locales is also relevant to my opening questions Though not technically hybrids.

Western and Tassie tigers is a good example seeing as that some maintain they should be recognised as separate species.

 

[GeckPhotographer]

Yes but are they fertile offspring?

I believe that was the implication. But as I say, rumours, unvalidated comments in chat rooms, people who I've never met. As likely bull as true, so someone else can tell you if it's real or not.

But under the theoretical case of it being true...

 

[citrus]

They have crossed Black headed x carpet, woma x carpet, gtp x carpet so I can't see why you couldn't cross vens but why would you want to? What anti venom do they give you if you get a bad tag?

 

[getarealdog]

There was a clutch of Western x Tassie tigers a few years ago (accidental breeding apparently),

Here's a couple of the resulting breeding of male western & female tassie. Both around 2 1/2 years of age when photo taken. Unfortunately they are both deceased now & both were females. Really loved the stripes on them whereas my current true westerns lack. Much debate with tigers in regard to "species", I stick with locale, Eastern,Western,Tassie,etc. On a side note with these 2 "hybrids" I was told exactly whom the parents were so credit to the seller for being up front. Wish I had got more of them.

 

[-Peter]

And someone will argue black and blue there should be only one, apparently they can all interbreed (not my claim, just what I hear).

Species distinction now seems to rely on DNA differences. So what to the naked eye looks like the same animal can be differentiated at a sub molecular level. Human desire to name every thing and all its parts.

 

[GeckPhotographer]

Species distinction now seems to rely on DNA differences. So what to the naked eye looks like the same animal can be differentiated at a sub molecular level. Human desire to name every thing and all its parts.

While it's true that the DNA of an animal is becoming more and more important in describing animals, it's very very rare for a new species to be described on DNA alone. More that researchers will find a genetic difference then spend time working harder looking for a constant morphological or behavioral or habitat niche etc etc, difference that they can use to support that it deserves species level that it is reproductively isolated in one way or another. I don't know of any description I've seen that relies on genetics alone, but I would believe there are some out there, and there is the possibility for them to become more and more common. Even with all the new DNA technology we can come up with you can't get over that our definition of species is very strong on the level that there must be some form of reproductive isolation (those that say our definition of species is bad, it's true but that comes from how you define reproductive isolation, not from that it has to be there in some form) and looking at the DNA is only one line of evidence towards proving that.

 

[-Peter]

Obviously genetic isolation would be an imperative in the creation of a distinct species. That isolation in itself has prompted research into distint populations of currently accepted species. As access to DNA technology become more easily available I think you will seem a flood of Honours and post grad research in this area. To say "Species distinction now seems to rely on DNA differences" was a generalisy statement but I'm sure you got the gist. It now plays an important part.