Cutting eggs - when?

[Waterrat]

"Cutting eggs open early and 'triggering' smaller hatchies to come out before they're ready is a load of crap."

I copied this statement from another thread. It inspired me to open up some questions about piping eggs and it would be good to hear on this subject from other breeders.

Those of you who worked with crocodiles would know that when ready to hatch, the neonates start chirping (inside the eggs), which sends a signal to the mother (guarding the nest) to excavate the nest. The noise and vibrations trigger mass hatching.

To pipe snake eggs, we handle each egg, cut a slit or a "window", put the egg down again and so we go through the whole clutch. That means; handling, change of pressure inside the eggs, sometimes loss of amniotic fluid and temporary change in temperature. Piping is usually done a day or two prior to the actual hatching. I wonder if by doing that we are sending a false signal to the neonates that it's time to come out. In the wild, they can take their time and cut through the the eggshell when they're ready, although the signal is given by the vibrations of the first snake cutting through and crawling over the rest of the eggs. Surely, the signal must be strong enough when the eggs are in a cluster.

In the past years I used to pip my eggs (GTPs that is) on day 49 and they started to come out on day 51 and onwards. Many of the neonates, even whole clutches came out with not fully enclosed belly, some even dragging egg yolk sac with them. They all came good but I wasn't happy with the situation. I then changed the system and now I don't cut the eggs until the first hatchling comes out. I never had the problem since.

Any thoughts on that?

 

[Nighthawk]

We wait until the first egg has pipped on its own, but I like the idea of waiting until the first hatchling physically emerges. To tell you the truth I've never felt very comfortable with it anyway, it's pure selfish curiosity on my part and the couple that we've had still dragging yolk sac gives me the heebies a little.
What sort of time difference have you recorded with the new system as opposed to pipping on day 49?
Besides, manual pipping on a 'due date' reminds me of scheduling an unnecessary c-section. Unless there's reasonable cause for it, it shouldn't really happen. Everyone (and every thing I suppose) bakes them different. Saying that there have been no complications to date doesn't mean that manually pipping when none of the hatchies have poked their noses out or when there's not reasonable cause for concern isn't going to cause complications in the future.

Sorry, more stuff: have you noted any change in behaviour from before and after? More or less sluggishness, etc? Differences in size/weight, inclination to illness with age, more or less difficulty on average in establishing feeds? I'd be curious to know, and I believe it would be valid info for those deciding whether or not it is beneficial to leave the hatchies to emerge on their own or whether there's not really a difference.

 

[Waterrat]

Some old-hands even reckon that hatchlings that come out on their own are stronger, more robust than those assisted by piping. I am not sure how such claim can be substantiated but lets give it the benefit of doubt.

Likewise, I can't offer any solid data but the hatchlings born under this new system are bigger and lively, no signs of lethargy like in those previous clutches. Come to think of it, I have to say yes to all you question in your last paragraph but I can offer any statistical results.
The danger of letting a whole clutch to hatch naturally is; if the neonates are weak or loose their cutting tooth, they can drown. It has happened and it's well documented.

On another subject - for the life of me, I can't understand or see a reason for cutting a "window" big as half of the egg instead of just a V-shaped slit. No need to explain the potential risks associated with such exposure, I just wonder if there could be any other reason but impatience to see the neos.

 

[Wally]

I don't know a great deal about the subject, but I did read this article with some interest not long ago.

Turtles communicate hatching through their eggs - Australian Geographic

Granted it's about turtles, but interesting nonetheless.

 

[No-two]

I've piped eggs on a certain day (day 51 for example) and I've piped them after the first one, it has never made a difference. You can pip and egg a week in advance and it generally won't come out. I've had them without fully absorbed egg sacs in the past but they've had very full bellies and it looks like nothing else would fit, I've had this from both eggs piped early and ones they've done on their own. I don't really pip eggs anymore the babies are good enough to get out on their own. I never cut a hole, just a V.

This season I had a woma pip on his own so I piped the rest of the clutch, he came out the next day they didn't even stick their heads out of the slit in the eggs for about 5 days.

In the case of those carpets, its quiet obvious they're probably not healthy animals, the fact the breeder made a mistake and piped them casueing the to come out early and die is just an excuse.

 

[Nighthawk]

Might be worth a long-term study with some hardcore documentation going on. It would be interesting to see if there are, on average, long-term effects/benefits to pipping early/natural hatch.
I guess at the end of the day it's a judgement call at this stage; as long as incubation temps are steady and there's no reason to suspect gestation periods would be altered too drastically there's no real reason why you can't pip the eggs yourself, although we do prefer to wait until the first in the clutch has taken the initiative.
I'd still like to see some numbers though, if anybody's done any long-term studies on this or if anybody's in the process of documenting the outcomes of both manual and natural pipping and some variants of each.
At the end of the day that sort of info would be valuable and could very well be the difference between 'living snake' and 'quality, strong, healthy living snake'.

 

[JasonL]

Also the cutting of veins can't be any good imo, I agree with not cutting any eggs at all if possible, sure you will lose snakes, but at least you can try to learn what you are doing wrong, never know, you just might learn something over time

 

[Waterrat]

On one hand, it would be relatively easy to regress neonate BW against egg BW of piped and unpiped eggs but there are other elements such as parent's fitness that can have a direct influence on the quality of the hatchlings.

No-two, Rico Walder addressed this issue of premature piping at his last talk and he elaborated about possible introduction on bacteria if the eggs are "open" for too long before the neonates come out. He illustrated real cases. It may not have happened to you as yet but it may happen sometimes. I don't see any justifiable reason for piping eggs a week before hatching.

Also the cutting of veins can't be any good imo,

That is exactly why can't understand why some breeders cut a big portion of the egg shell out. Surely, many blood veins must be severed by doing that.

 

[Renenet]

The danger of letting a whole clutch to hatch naturally is; if the neonates are weak or loose their cutting tooth, they can drown. It has happened and it's well documented.

This might sound callous, but if a neonate can't get out of the egg, isn't it likely to be a weak animal anyway? Or do weak neonates eventually catch up to their more robust counterparts?

 

[Waterrat]

It probably applies in the wild, however, we do strange things with our captives, especially when it comes to diet / nutrition. Sometimes gravid females produce thin egg shells due to lack of calcium, sometimes the opposite. The egg tooth is not a very solid instrument and often breaks off before cutting through if the shell is too hard or too thick. Whole clutches have been lost in the past due to the neonates being unable to cut through the egg shells. That's unnecessary waste that can be prevented by piping the eggs.

 

[dylan-rocks]

a subject that has been untouched for a long time... good to see people sharing around and spreading their opinions on the topic at hand
in my opinion i wouldn't pipe the egg, because i believe in all natural... but on the other hand i have never breed before

 

[Renenet]

That makes sense, Michael. Interesting topic.

 

[PimmsPythons]

once one has pipped itself,i go through and pip them all with a small V
cheers
simon

 

[dylan-rocks]

so is it any different with lizards( piping the eggs) or is it just used in snakes???

 

[longqi]

Ive actually never pipped any eggs
But I also did once lose a clutch quite possibly because of a denser shell? as I had no reason to lose them
They were Womas if that has any bearing

I always believed in 'Cant escape egg, must be genetically weak'
But after reading this might be tempted to change my mind a bit

Great information

 

[Bryce]

I pipped a clutch of GTP eggs this morning (day 49). I have never had an issue at all with doing this. I think that it all depends on your setup and how your eggs have been incubated an when they are meant to hatch if there is such a thing as when. I agree that early pipping may cause animals to Come out premi and the risk of infection/bacteria will build up. In saying that I have never had any issues with any babies etc.

 

[longqi]

Im on day 53 with 2 clutches and nothing hatched yet
But those are being maternally hatched and sometimes take longer so not worried at all
Last hatchies were incubated because mother lost interest but they hatched mostly days 52 and 53
2 late ones day 55

 

[solar 17]

One point l feel has been missed is what about the neonates that are strong apart from a dislodged or deformed egg tooth, l have seen "well formed" robust hatchies suffocate and die through not be able to emerge from their egg.
l tried for a couple of seasons a good while back pipping on temp. rise for no apparent gain, these days l think like as slimbo said l cut a " small" v in the highest part of the egg of the rest after the 1st. one pips and for me l reckon l will stick with this method.
People on this thread can say about it not being natural but can these herpers point out what is "natural" in our hobbie, plus l personally feel sick in the stomach to see a drowned fully formed hatchie but alas has a dislodged or deformed egg tooth which falls away within 24 hours of hatching....but at the end of the day everybody has a point of view.
..........solar 17 (baden)

 

[JasonL]

One point l feel has been missed is what about the neonates that are strong apart from a dislodged or deformed egg tooth, l have seen "well formed" robust hatchies suffocate and die through not be able to emerge from their egg.
l tried for a couple of seasons a good while back pipping on temp. rise for no apparent gain, these days l think like as slimbo said l cut a " small" v in the highest part of the egg of the rest after the 1st. one pips and for me l reckon l will stick with this method.
People on this thread can say about it not being natural but can these herpers point out what is "natural" in our hobbie, plus l personally feel sick in the stomach to see a drowned fully formed hatchie but alas has a dislodged or deformed egg tooth which falls away within 24 hours of hatching....but at the end of the day everybody has a point of view.
..........solar 17 (baden)

I personally think the old missing egg tooth thing has a lot more too it than just a simple missing egg tooth that could "just" happen... More like the tooth was either soft or not formed correctly because of a calcium / nutrient deficiency because the female who laid the eggs carries her issues on or that incubation temps have been un natural at one point or more...

 

[MrSpike]

I tend to wait until the first snake is pipped before I cut the rest. And even then I will only remove hatchlings once they have emerged completely. Nearly every time almost all of the hatchlings will have a cut elsewhere in the egg anyway.