Say yes to the Jag

[Bananapeel]

Yeah I understand it was a fluke and not intended but it has pretty much turned into a man made problem after all the modifying done etc etc. I mean more to the point that albinism for example occurred naturally (as did the jag gene) but has continued to be inherited into more generation in the snakes and it doesn't cause neuro like the jag gene does. Albinism has not been messed with. Pure jags were a nice snake but people couldn't be happy with it and I'm amazed there hasn't been something done about the ability to keep producing snakes with health issues.these are my views only.

 

[Variety]

We can thank greedy money hungry big breeders for mass producing this disgusting gene instead of taking the time to develop RPM lines. Defently some beautiful looking healthy jags around but having them is not worth also having the ones with neuro problems especially when there is an alternative. Bananapeel is right aswell that consumers are to blame just as much as it's human nature to want the new bright shiny toy. To many people seeing $$ signs then to give a rats about animal welfare. P.s I have no problem with morphs there's some awesome jags and carpondros but watching a neuro snake spaz around is appalling.

Your admitting they are good looking snakes and i feel you should have left it there, This post started off very innocent and highlighting some good looking snakes. This argument of morals that keeps getting thrown around every time someone mentions a jag is getting old and its time people accept it as part of hobby. If you genuinely are concerned about animal welfare im going to assume you are a vegan and an animal activist.

 

[Hamalicious]

You have a point, the jag gene is not man made, but that isnt the point. We are talking about the people who exploit them and whether they should or not. Albinism has draw backs in nature because of a lack of camouflage, but it does not effect the snakes health.

 

[Variety]

You have a point, the jag gene is not man made, but that isnt the point. We are talking about the people who exploit them and whether they should or not. Albinism has draw backs in nature because of a lack of camouflage, but it does not effect the snakes health.

No, WE are talking about nice looking snakes as this thread was obviously intended to host such a discussion.

 

[sara_sabian]

I do see your point, I was talking to a respected breeder the other day about people that used to stop traffic to move a snake off the road and now freeze entire or half of a clutch of snakes all for the $ I don't believe that this represents the majority or breeders though.

I have a jag and she is stunning to look at but she does corkscrew and flip which is pretty unpleasant to see. I knew there was a possibility of this happening before I got her but I don't imagine I'll be buying any more of them or breeding from her. She'll be a display snake only, a display snake that is too stressed to be put on display unfortunately

At the end of the day jags are stunning, no matter how you feel about them and it's impossible to dictate to someone else where their line of morality ought to be drawn, no amount of argument is going to change that.

 

[longqi]

Your admitting they are good looking snakes and i feel you should have left it there, This post started off very innocent and highlighting some good looking snakes. This argument of morals that keeps getting thrown around every time someone mentions a jag is getting old and its time people accept it as part of hobby. If you genuinely are concerned about animal welfare im going to assume you are a vegan and an animal activist.

Using the moral argument against a form of breeding anything that can result in negative health result
for the animal being bred is perfectly fair and logical

Animal activists care about animal wefare
SO
Does your quote mean that jag breeders dont care about animal welfare??

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You have a point, the jag gene is not man made, but that isnt the point. We are talking about the people who exploit them and whether they should or not. Albinism has draw backs in nature because of a lack of camouflage, but it does not effect the snakes health.

Albinism most certainly does affect health in any animal including man

 

[sara_sabian]

Albinism has draw backs in nature because of a lack of camouflage, but it does not effect the snakes health.

This is not always the case, I think you need to do some more research before making such a broad statement.

 

[Variety]

Using the moral argument against a form of breeding anything that can result in negative health result
for the animal being bred is perfectly fair and logical

Animal activists care about animal wefare
SO
Does your quote mean that jag breeders dont care about animal welfare??

Somewhat yes but i do believe it is their choice to make and they obviously have to consider it before taking part in something so frowned upon, i don't believe it should be preached here when there the OP obviously posted this to display some good looking jags. I don't mean they keep their pythons in bad conditions but surely they know when starting it that they may have to make some tough decisions..

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Ummm we were discussing animal welfare as you drew stupid comparisons. I suppose I better step back tho hey, this bloke knows "top end respected breeders". Get over yourself. This is getting off topic real quick.

You took "Know" out of context, please do read over what i wrote. I know the top end respected breeders in this country do so ... Not i know them .. lol

 

[TheJoyces]

Haha i dont even own jags but i know the top end respected breeders in this country do so maybe thats a question you should be asking them,

I think what Burnerism asked, was is this how you keep your herps? Not jags. I think the point a majority of people here are trying to make is, although a beautiful snake, with natural found qualities, it has been fiddled with to the point where it is causing distress and problems within the breed. I mean you wouldn't keep breeding dogs that were related just because of one awesome trait they had would you? And honestly would you keep those dogs in a cage they could only stand and turn around in? If you would, then that is on your moral conscious and for your higher self to deal with. The fact is we agree that they are an amazing snake to look at, the unfortunate aspect is there appears to be a lot of side effects attached to "gaining the perfect jag". Maybe a little respect for each other and the animals in question is all we are asking for. We can accept and respect that these are beautiful creatures, and accept the fact that they deserve a nice enclosure, and deserve the right not to exploited and have deliberate influences creating serious health issues. However as said before only my opinion in any of this.

 

[KaotikJezta]

Haha i dont even own jags but i know the top end respected breeders in this country do so maybe thats a question you should be asking them,

Top end and respected shouldn't necessarily always go hand in hand.

 

[Burnerism]

Haha this is getting tiresome and points are been missed. Anyway moving on, is there any general health issues known with carpondros? Mainly from the humidity of the tree python x?

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Well said TheJoyces! Sums it up well.

 

[ronhalling]

Hamalicious is the only 1 to really get what the thread "say yes to the Jag" is all about, it's the americans and their can't leave well enough alone mentallity that is causing all this, they are almost throwing out a challenge to us and others watching the video to accept what they are doing,i fell for the beauty of these jags untill i read the nuero problems associated with there breeding, i was also appalled with what they were keeping them in but he said he was in the process of changing them up to enclosures but i am sure there are many many more being kept in deplorable conditions.................................................Ron

 

[Skippii]

My god you guys make it hard not to jump in and join the debate..

ANYWAY... Those are some gorgeous snakes! Personally though, I'm just as happy with my natural critters.

I've definitely got an issue what the "enclosures" he's keeping those poor slitherers in.. Pretty damn cruel.

x

 

[Hamalicious]

This is not always the case, I think you need to do some more research before making such a broad statement.

Actually yes, i have done research. Albinism rarely, if ever, results in other health problems. It only causes problems when in conjunction with other, pre-existing, non albinism related health issues. On the whole, Albino animals are just as healthy as the rest of the population. I have read this from many different medical journals and other sources.

If you have information i am not aware of, i have no problem with being wrong.

 

[Variety]

I think what Burnerism asked, was is this how you keep your herps? Not jags. I think the point a majority of people here are trying to make is, although a beautiful snake, with natural found qualities, it has been fiddled with to the point where it is causing distress and problems within the breed. I mean you wouldn't keep breeding dogs that were related just because of one awesome trait they had would you? And honestly would you keep those dogs in a cage they could only stand and turn around in? If you would, then that is on your moral conscious and for your higher self to deal with. The fact is we agree that they are an amazing snake to look at, the unfortunate aspect is there appears to be a lot of side effects attached to "gaining the perfect jag". Maybe a little respect for each other and the animals in question is all we are asking for. We can accept and respect that these are beautiful creatures, and accept the fact that they deserve a nice enclosure, and deserve the right not to exploited and have deliberate influences creating serious health issues. However as said before only my opinion in any of this.

Suggesting that people that own jags arnt prone to upholding a level of animal welfare was his point and i thought it should be stated that i don't even own jags so my husbandry techniques should'nt be under the microscope (Not that anyone "Pro jag" should be labeled like that).

I do agree that some respect should be shown at all times not just between the two sides of this argument as we are all at different levels and expectations of this hobby we all share but stepping in and defending people who are often put down for supporting jags or showing them off has shown me how passionate people are in a good way. I just ask that people step back and take the time before ripping someones head off for appreciating the beauty of a snake, often times they do not realize the back ground story of jags.

As I've said i do not own jags and probably never will but i do believe they are a beautiful snake and would'nt change (or try to change) that we have them because for some people designing pythons is a hobby in itself and i respect that.

 

[Hamalicious]

No, WE are talking about nice looking snakes as this thread was obviously intended to host such a discussion.

Read my first post mate, i agreed they were nice looking snakes and that, if they were natural, i would like them. My problem is the mentality of the breeders and their lack of care for animal welfare. If you dont like people expressing their views, stay off the forums.

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Could have swarm it did yrs ago ???

Yes it did, but not to the level the American morph breeders have taken it.

 

[TheJoyces]

Haha this is getting tiresome and points are been missed. Anyway moving on, is there any general health issues known with carpondros? Mainly from the humidity of the tree python x?

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Well said TheJoyces! Sums it up well.

I have been trying to find out information on a lot of the cross bred snakes, and obviously there isn't a lot to be sourced. From what I have read about carpondros is that they take on more of the carpet gene. Assuming like everything in the wild and genetics the strongest gene will usually (99.9% of the time) be the dominant. However trying to source information on complications arising from this cross bred snake is a little harder to sniff out. Anything that's reliable any way. People aren't going to go around breeding things and pointing out all the negetives and failing points are they!? I will keep happily reading and digesting information as it comes and will happily share it on though. There are a few UK sites that talk about them.

 

[Bananapeel]

I think what Burnerism asked, was is this how you keep your herps? Not jags. I think the point a majority of people here are trying to make is, although a beautiful snake, with natural found qualities, it has been fiddled with to the point where it is causing distress and problems within the breed. I mean you wouldn't keep breeding dogs that were related just because of one awesome trait they had would you? And honestly would you keep those dogs in a cage they could only stand and turn around in? If you would, then that is on your moral conscious and for your higher self to deal with. The fact is we agree that they are an amazing snake to look at, the unfortunate aspect is there appears to be a lot of side effects attached to "gaining the perfect jag". Maybe a little respect for each other and the animals in question is all we are asking for. We can accept and respect that these are beautiful creatures, and accept the fact that they deserve a nice enclosure, and deserve the right not to exploited and have deliberate influences creating serious health issues. However as said before only my opinion in any of this.

I agree 100%
they are stunning snakes and I'm yet to find someone who disagrees but the fact that they have a health issue should over power the fact that they're pretty and it needs dealing with.
like jimi Hendrix quote goes "when the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace"
fairly simple I think.

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I just ask that people step back and take the time before ripping someones head off for appreciating the beauty of a snake, often times they do not realize the back ground story of jags.

As I've said i do not own jags and probably never will but i do believe they are a beautiful snake and would'nt change (or try to change) that we have them because for some people designing pythons is a hobby in itself and i respect that.

i mentioned in my first post that I believe they are stunning snakes and I said again Im yet to find someone who doesn't but the fact that people are putting the designer and beauty side of things before the animals welfare astounds me. Breeders are aware of neuro yet they don't care.

 

[TheJoyces]

Suggesting that people that own jags arnt prone to upholding a level of animal welfare was his point and i thought it should be stated that i don't even own jags so my husbandry techniques should'nt be under the microscope (Not that anyone "Pro jag" should be labeled like that).

I do agree that some respect should be shown at all times not just between the two sides of this argument as we are all at different levels and expectations of this hobby we all share but stepping in and defending people who are often put down for supporting jags or showing them off has shown me how passionate people are in a good way. I just ask that people step back and take the time before ripping someones head off for appreciating the beauty of a snake, often times they do not realize the back ground story of jags.

As I've said i do not own jags and probably never will but i do believe they are a beautiful snake and would'nt change (or try to change) that we have them because for some people designing pythons is a hobby in itself and i respect that.

If you take the time to read over my posts, I have clearly stated they are a beautiful creature. I have also clearly stated, that however athestically pleasing an animal may be, I however don't condone pratices of genetic manipulation and poor animal welfare. I have also not once stated in any of my calm and collective rebuttals that all "jag breeders" do this. I meerly stated that this particular one in question appeared to keep his "stock" poorly, and for that I dislike, especially the way he spoke about the one with clear neural deficiencies. We are all entitled to form our own opinion and I don't judge any one for what they deem to be acceptable practices or not. All I have stood by is that I would clearly not support an industry where CLEAR representations of genetic malfunctions is present. If you have no qualm with them, than that's your cross to bare. But labelling someone a vegan for not wanting to take part is a bit to critical and a long way off the point. I'm not a vegan. I just don't particularly like what I saw. Nothing more than that.

 

[thomasssss]

maybe we should just start a thread titled JAG DEBATE and see how many pages it goes for , would the mods be cool with that? atleast it might help keep the arguments in one place

i dont hate jags and i dont love them either , i definitely think they have their place though and that place is not being sold to newbies that are going to handle and stress them and bring out the nuero , theres more suited snakes for that , part of the reason i dont think the should be sold in pet shops