Advice requested regarding an egg bound python

[Sdaji]

Hi all,

I have a Children's Pythons which had her first clutch yesterday, she produced nine fertile eggs which were removed as she layed them (approximately one every half hour). After removing the ninth egg, one egg was still clearly visible about 3" anterior of the cloaca (posterior of its original position, but still a long way from the vent), at that point the snake coiled around the phantom eggs (as is commonly seen after pythons' eggs are taken away). I hoped that she would pass the remaining egg overnight, but she is still coiled around the phantom eggs and the egg has not moved in position. I've tried gently moving the egg and making her slither through tight gaps, requiring the egg to move posteriorly for her to get through, neither of which moved the egg at all (I obviously don't want to use excessive force).

I'd like to hear from anyone who has any worthwhile advice, please refrain from putting chit chat into this thread as it is a serious request for assistance. Although well intentioned, multiple posts of "go to a vet" aren't going to help. Incidentally, a vet will either have no clue, want to remove the egg surgically (which I will not allow) or use an oxytocin injection, which is an option I'm considering. I'd particularly like to hear about the experiences of anyone who has had a similar experience. Discussion via private message or email - [email protected] - is preferred, but I'm happy to discuss it in the thread if that's your preference, as long as no one gets into chit chat or generic "see a vet" type advice.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Apomixis.

 

[Magpie]

Not something that has happened to me, but I did chat with someone who had a similar experience.
I do not condone this, nor recomend it but here is what they did.
Using a needle and syringe, they removed the contents from the egg, thus deflating it.
The deflated egg was then gently massaged to the cloacca and gently removed.
The snake was then able to breed for them is future years.
I cannot remember whether they peirced the needle through the snake or exposed a portion of the egg through the cloacca.

 

[junglepython2]

Same thing happened to one of my childrens last season they were there for a while as I wasn't sure they were eggs. I tried warm baths and massaging but it didnt work. After a while it dropped one egg which was a solid slug. The other didnt want to budge. I fed it a couple of mice that were covered in some cod liver oil which did the trick a few days later.

The snake is now fine and suffered no ill effects.

 

[TrueBlue]

sdaji, try removing the sub-sraight that the snake layed on as it still holds the smell of the eggs and makes it want to incubate.
It should then move around a bit more and pass the egg. It is also a good chance that it is a slug as sometimes these can be passed pryor to or after frertile eggs have been layed, sometimes a day or two before or after.
Movement from the snake should move the egg in question closer to the vent and if she doesnt pass it herself it can normally be gently massaged out.

 

[Sdaji]

Magpie: I've heard of a couple of cases like that, with the syringe going in through the belly, sucking out the egg's contents. Like you, I'm not too keen on the idea and would prefer to take my chances with the snake working things out on her own. I suppose it would be easy enough to do, but the risk of infection or injury seems fairly high. I suppose if I heard of a large number of people doing it, all with good results, I'd do it. Thanks for the idea.

junglepython2: I'm sure this egg is full sized, the snake isn't large and so it's pretty easy to judge the size of the egg. I'm wondering whether or not to feed the snake, I was hoping someone would have an anecdote like yours. How long was it between feeding the mice and the egg being passed? I don't think lubricating the mouse will do much because the digestive and reproductive tracts are not connected, but the mass of something passing through the snake might push things along, or digestion might give the metabolism a kick, which might help. I'm a little concerned about food causing the snake to go into 'non gravid mode' and focus on digestion, causing the egg to be ignored. I've never had an egg bound snake before so I'm at a bit of a loss. Incidentally, was the final egg your snake passed viable?

 

[Sdaji]

TrueBlue: thanks! I was wondering about that. I knew that if I removed the nest box she would cease brooding the phantom eggs, but I wasn't sure if that would make her feel uncomfortable (the next box being where they feel secure and lay eggs) or if getting rid of the brooding instinct would cause a shift in behaviour which would be beneficial. The first nine eggs are all fertile and the remaining one is full sized, so it will be interesting to see whether or not it is a large slug. I've tried massaging the egg with no movement at all. How forceful can you be without risk of hurting the snake or breaking the egg? If I get the egg to move an inch or two, is it likely the snake will then pass it or is it more likely to just sit in its new position? (If I manage to get movement, should I force the egg right out?)

Thanks for your help, everyone. It's very much appreciated.

 

[TrueBlue]

yeah if you get it to move it should move to the vent quite easily and can then be massaged out with ease, I cant stipulate enough thou to be very very gentle, although with saying that youll be surprised at how much force you can use as long as your very careful.

Hope this helps and everything works out.

 

[TrueBlue]

its not a cyst or tumour.??

 

[Sdaji]

So you're saying I should manually move the egg right out, after the snake has moved it close to the cloaca on her own? If I'm very, very gentle, the egg isn't going to move at all as I've already gone a fair bit more forceful than 'very very gentle' without getting any movement at all.

Thanks for your help, I'm off to remove the next box.

 

[Franco]

Sdaji,

I've had an egg bound Diamond python before. I woke up one morning to find a bunch of slugs in her nesting box of which she was very protective. After their removal she was still very highly strung and clingy to her "phantom clutch". After close inspection I realised that she still had at least one slug about 2 inches from her cloaca.

I do not know of a specialised herp vet remotely near where I live and relied on the help of those more experienced.

I too tried massaging and warm baths to no avail. I then removed all the contents in the enclosure and disinfected it. I then supplied a new hide box and left her to relax as also suggested to you be TrueBlue.
After this her activity levels increased as she explored her enclosure, causing the egg to slowly work its way out. Two days passed and I found two infertile eggs deposited in her water bowl. I did not offer her food during this period.
Someone suggested evacuating the egg of its content to me as well. Naturally I was reluctant and concerned with septicaemia type infections. A difficult decision to make.

Please let us know how you go.

All the best

Franco

 

[Sdaji]

No, it's not a cyst or tumour. It looked just like the other nine egg lumps and moved a couple of inches towards the cloaca when she was ovipositing. I usually let snakes finish laying all of their eggs before removing them, but this time I thought I'd do what many consider to be best and remove them one by one. I'm not sure if the disturbance caused the problem, but I suspect it didn't and this would have happened anyway.

 

[TrueBlue]

cool, hopefully she will pass it in a day or two once she goes looking for her eggs after all the smell has gone.

 

[Sdaji]

She is now moving around, probably very confused. I measured the distance from the egg to the cloaca, it's a little further than I estimated, more like 5". I tried to move it, but without using more force than I'm willing to, the egg won't move. It is probably 5-7" from where it was before oviposition started.

 

[Sdaji]

Franco: thanks for your input. It's good to hear of someone else having a similar problem with a good outcome. I had a similar thing happen a few years ago, also with a carpet, she had about 40 eggs, all infertile, which were passed over about five days, but I consider this to be more of a case of slugs being passed casually, rather than egg binding. Unless any other issues come up or a magic cure presents itself, I'll leave her for another two days and then try lubricating and massaging the egg again. If that doesn't help I'll go for oxytocin, if that doesn't work after a few more days I'll start thinking about to destroying the egg in order to get it out. I'll let you know how things turn out, I'm certainly very hopeful as despite being "just a childreni", I'm very fond of her. If this egg gets out alive and I manage to hatch it, I'll probably have to keep the baby

Thanks to everyone who has given information and advice, including the one who did it away from the forum.

 

[junglepython2]

junglepython2: I'm sure this egg is full sized, the snake isn't large and so it's pretty easy to judge the size of the egg. I'm wondering whether or not to feed the snake, I was hoping someone would have an anecdote like yours. How long was it between feeding the mice and the egg being passed? I don't think lubricating the mouse will do much because the digestive and reproductive tracts are not connected, but the mass of something passing through the snake might push things along, or digestion might give the metabolism a kick, which might help. I'm a little concerned about food causing the snake to go into 'non gravid mode' and focus on digestion, causing the egg to be ignored. I've never had an egg bound snake before so I'm at a bit of a loss. Incidentally, was the final egg your snake passed viable?

The food wasn't offered until the egg had been there for some time, we arnt talking days but more like weeks or months. I tried massaging regularly and was as forceful as I could without hurting the snake but the egg didnt budge at all. The snake was active during this time and wasn't sensitive around the area. She resumed eating like normal which also didnt budge the egg. Thats when I fed it the oil covered mouse, this seemed to move the lump so I fed it one more and about 3 or 4 days later by memory she dropped the egg. I presumed it was a slug as it was hard and smelt, however b/c it was there for so long it could have been fertile initially. I didnt have a good look I was just glad it was out.

I realise the digestive and reproductive tracts are seperate, the only thoughts I had on why it worked was that either some of the oil was absorbed through the tracts or that the oil meant the mouse passed through quicker so by the time it was at the same place as the egg it was larger in size then normal and pushed it along. It could also have been coincedence, but maybe worth a try if all else fails as it seems safer then the syringe approach.

 

[Sdaji]

Re: RE: Advice requested regarding an egg bound python

The food wasn't offered until the egg had been there for some time, we arnt talking days but more like weeks or months. I tried massaging regularly and was as forceful as I could without hurting the snake but the egg didnt budge at all. The snake was active during this time and wasn't sensitive around the area. She resumed eating like normal which also didnt budge the egg. Thats when I fed it the oil covered mouse, this seemed to move the lump so I fed it one more and about 3 or 4 days later by memory she dropped the egg. I presumed it was a slug as it was hard and smelt, however b/c it was there for so long it could have been fertile initially. I didnt have a good look I was just glad it was out.

I realise the digestive and reproductive tracts are seperate, the only thoughts I had on why it worked was that either some of the oil was absorbed through the tracts or that the oil meant the mouse passed through quicker so by the time it was at the same place as the egg it was larger in size then normal and pushed it along. It could also have been coincedence, but maybe worth a try if all else fails as it seems safer then the syringe approach.

Weeks/months? Wow, that's a fair while. Is she gravid this year? Will you try to breed her again?

Thanks again, much appreciated.

 

[junglepython2]

RE: Re: RE: Advice requested regarding an egg bound python

I believe she is gravid again this year as she is rather large now. She didnt seem to suffer any ill effects and ate like a pig even when the bulges were present, she is in perfect condition.

It took some time before the bulges became visible even after she laid, she is a rather large snake and individual eggs couldn't be seen prelay. So it wasn't until she dropped that first egg that I was sure the bulges were in fact eggs. I thought it might be some from of constipation at first.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I had an imbricata with a retained egg a couple of years ago, and after a few days she was given an oxytocin injection, within 24 hours she passed the retained egg and went on to breed successfully the next year (accidentally I might say )\. She's now the only imbricata I have, and living in comfortable retirement. Nothing I did seemed to assist her to pass the egg prior to the injection.

Jamie.

 

[AntaresiaLady]

Sdaji- I know tis kinda chit chatty, but I'd be interested (being the curious george that I am) how this works out.

I think it might be beneficial to people (particularly newbies) who are looking to breed.

 

[indicus]

I've had similar with childrens a few times now.....
Each time the egg/eggs (slugs) were passed a few days later, without any further problems......
Just pay attention to her, and see how she goes....before jumping the gun and hassling her.