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I think I maybe missing the point of the goal of the research.
Is it just testing to see if scaarfing endangers the animal's health so as to justify fattening them up
quickly in order to 'make money' on them ?.......or something else ?
 
I have see some interesting and valid points, and off the top of my head, will attempt to cover what I believe has been asked. Firstly, I would like to reiterate that the term ‘Scarffing’ is not really relevant in this context, and even in other threads, the term has been mis or ill-defined. The main misconception regarding this study is that we are attempting to grow the animals as fast as possible. This is not the case. As is outlined in the CARA abstract, the animals were maintained at 30 degrees and fed every 7 days. This can not, by any stretch of the imagination, be seen as powerfeeding, ‘Scarffing’ or force-feeding. As anyone who has bred or raised hatchling pythons would know, these are moderate temperatures and moderate feeding intervals. As an example, when the animals were new hatchlings, this required the removal of limbs from some of the pinkies (normally just the tail and a foot) to reduce the weight down to 30 % of the bodyweight of the snake. Overfeeding? Maintain them at 35 degrees and feed to refusal every 3-4 days and you may have a point (but who knows with no data). Furthermore, the graph of the high and low percentile pythons (the fastest growing 5 in the high intake treatment and slowest growing 5 in the high intake treatment) highlights this fact – feeding was voluntary, and under these conditions, was generally self limiting. Down to roughly 16% intake of bodyweight weekly. The differing weights of animals at 12 months of age tell the story.

But the notion of “my animals are growing too fast” I find unusual. Who has ever heard that before? Give me an example? In fact, normally the opposite is true – and there are infinite examples. What we aim to do with most animals in captivity is to maintain health and provide conditions which are ideal for growth and development to maturity, and reproduction. Other factors are similarly important (welfare, psychological health etc) but in this case, we are primarily discussing physical development. And so far, I cannot see any reasons why we would not wish to learn more about the animals we are interested in / obsessed with.

The “that level of feeding is un-natural” philosophy is also strange and largely irrelevant. Maintaining health, welfare and minimising mortality are the primary initial objectives of keeping animals in captivity. We have successfully eliminated predation, most diseases and parasitism from the captive environment, so why should we not attempt to provide optimal levels of nutrition?

One positive point is that most people who have commented seem to have genuine concern for the welfare of their animals, which is good to see. Similarly, this is what this study aims to do – provide information which can be used to improve the health and welfare of pythons in captivity.
 
Thanks for some clarification.
Would you suspect that quite a high percentage of keepers who tried those amounts of food would ease back to less after the snake had reached sexual maturity ?
 
No problems. I really can't answer that as there is so much variability with how people feed and manage their snakes. What I can say is that the data from this study has made me more aware of how much I feed my own animals. A surprisingly neglected topic has been the 10% of bodyweight treatment. Am I making the erroneous conclusion that this level of feeding (and resultant growth) is normal in amateur herpeteculture for this species? I would be interested to know what people think about this.

J.
 
No problems. I really can't answer that as there is so much variability with how people feed and manage their snakes. What I can say is that the data from this study has made me more aware of how much I feed my own animals. A surprisingly neglected topic has been the 10% of bodyweight treatment. Am I making the erroneous conclusion that this level of feeding (and resultant growth) is normal in amateur herpeteculture for this species? I would be interested to know what people think about this.

J.

Jason

I weigh & measure mine after they have shed & defacated, then I use this weight to feed between 10 & 15% weekly. I don't get too fussy about weights but I try to keep most feeds around the 15% mark because they miss the odd feed with shedding etc. Maybe my regimen isn't too far from what you use.

Col J.
 
out of curiosity how long is this project going to run for and what will happen to these animals once it's done, will they be sacrificed for research? just would be great to basically feed and breed the hell out of them and actually see if they make it to old age. Might not sound very ethical but could do a tremendous amount of good in the long run for captive pythons.
 
out of curiosity how long is this project going to run for and what will happen to these animals once it's done, will they be sacrificed for research? just would be great to basically feed and breed the hell out of them and actually see if they make it to old age. Might not sound very ethical but could do a tremendous amount of good in the long run for captive pythons.

Well i pointed this out before, it would be great to do these sort of experiments forever but it is not realistic or practical without funding. The problem is for a scientific experiment it has to be always a controlled experiment for the entire duration. We anticipate that the initial duration of this experiment will be 3 years.

We are not planing on cutting these pythons up at all, rather trying new techniques such as CT scanning, and ultrasounding as well as blood work to try and assess internal health non-invasively!

Maybe the pythons will continue to be grown on it depends on many factors. No matter what you do you will have those who say great thats childrens pythons, now do it with every genus! It's never ending and realistically subject to research funding!
 
Good to see part of the results and btw that rubbish with high educational stats should have been explained to everyone who hasn't done mathetics 1.2.

But I must say that I am glad to see it and hope all reasonable suggestions will be taken and these results presnted once a year or more too.

Cheers
 
I can't wait until you guys start working on disproving things like 'DPS' and pinhead syndrome in Morelia!
 
Uws, i would like to thank you for the reaserch information.

this is and will be great information for present and future reptile enthusiests. i will be using this for my childrens.



i would love to see the end results.

Cheers
 
It quite interesting that on average group H ate only 6.1% more than group L on a weekly basis, but group H weigh significantly more at the one year mark.
 
Not sure how to word this, but would you expect the results to be similar for the other Antaresia? ie Maccies and Stimmies?
 
Now that is one hell of an interesting topic. I am very interested to see the results in both Morelia and Antaresia. I know this study is only studying the Antaresia; however, to see it done on Morelia would be great.

I know pin-head syndrome has been reported moreso within the Morelia genus and as such a similar study would be great.

The results at the end of 12 months is stunning. The size difference is incredible.

I wonder if that has something to do with a healthy metabolic rate which consistantly continues to ingest goodness from the food from which it eats as akin to the lower fed ones of whose metabolic rate stops nd starts.

Is there any chance of finding out as a sort of progress report from the start fo the study to the current status as to what food was fed and when, for example, month one - both subject groups fed pinkies, month three - subject group h graduated to fuzzy suject group l still on pinkies, etc.

Once again it is great to see this type of study being done. Finally we can have some closure (at least with the Antaresia genus) in regards to whether or not it is good or bad for the animal.

I believe though that this sort of study will have to go for the duration of the life of the animal in order to find out whether it does have an effect on the overall life expectancy. On this site it is highly regarded that the skarffing technique reduces the life expectancy of the animal.

We will see.

Thanks again and well done.

Cheers
 
Wait... sorry if this is a stupid question, but (I'm going to assume the results would be similar in Maculosa as well as Childreni) does that mean that if my python isn't that big by the time he is a year old, that I havn't been feeding him properley?
Does this study mean that 30% of the weight of the animal is what I SHOULD be feeding him? I never weighed either my python or the food, but was told to go off the widest point of both. Should I be weighing them? Am I underfeeding my snake if I am not?
What happens to snakes if they are underfed or overfed in the long term? He is 6 months old now, would damage be done already?
Shiva is my first snake, and I did alot of asking and research on how to look after him, but now I'm worried I've been doing it wrong and I might be harming him.
 
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