fraser888
Well-Known Member
Really do this is pretty mean. I rather drown to death them to be shockted
culling thought (good method for the softies)
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Forensick
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the pain of suffocation (hold your breathe) is caused by an increase in CO2 in the blood, not a reduction in O2
it looks painless... all research indicates that is far from true...
painless gasses are ones like argon and even nitrogen....
google co2 suffocation and ethics
it looks painless... all research indicates that is far from true...
painless gasses are ones like argon and even nitrogen....
google co2 suffocation and ethics
Before death ice crystals form in the blood - very painful. Depending on what you put the rat/mouse in before putting it in the freezer, they can get freezer burns on the paws if they touch other frozen items in the freezer.
And it's also very, very cold for several minutes before the animal dies.
Hix
Forensick
Very Well-Known Member
Machipongo, Va. – On March 21, Alberta Egg Producers announced support for a system of destroying large numbers of end-of-lay (“spent”) hens by dumping hundreds of the birds at once into deep bins that can hold 650 birds at a time, and killing them with carbon dioxide (CO2).
The egg producers claim that, in addition to being cheap and efficient, CO2 is “a very humane way to handle the birds.” However, this claim conflicts with scientific evidence showing that CO2 causes extreme suffering.
In a seminar presented at the US Department of Agriculture on December 16, 2004, Dr. Mohan Raj, Senior Research Fellow in the Farm Animal Division of the School of Clinical Veterinary Science at the University of Bristol in England, described the effects of CO2 on the body. CO2 induces breathlessness – a subjective distress in breathing known as dyspnea. According to Dr. Raj, dyspnea in both birds and mammals “activates brain regions associated with pain and induces an emotional response of panic.”
This is because, while CO2 increases the rate and depth of breathing to expel CO2 from the lungs, breathing actually increases the intake of CO2, and thus the desire to breathe to expel the noxious CO2 gas causes slow, painful suffocation.
In contrast, a gaseous stun/kill system based on the use of the inert gases argon or nitrogen, known as Controlled Atmosphere Stunning, eliminates or greatly reduces the suffering caused by pure CO2. Whereas CO2 induces painful suffocation, gases like argon and nitrogen induce a lack of oxygen, or anoxia, resulting in a painless death, according to Dr. Raj.
The crucial difference between anoxia (lack of oxygen) and dyspnea (breathlessness) is that, unlike anoxia, for which birds and mammals lack chemical receptors, suffocation involves receptors that register the physical separation of the upper respiratory tract from the outside atmosphere. In experiments in North America and the UK, chickens and turkeys exposed to high (40 percent or more) levels of CO2 “gasp, shake their heads, and stretch their necks to breathe.”
In an email dispatch to animal protectionists on March 26, Dr. Raj reiterated that exposure to carbon dioxide is “distressing and painful to animals and therefore should be avoided.” Alternatively, he said that end-of-lay-hens could be killed with less suffering in systems supplied with a mixture of 80% by volume argon and 20% by volume carbon dioxide – a mixture “universally available as a welding gas mixture.”
Welfarists agree that killing the hens on-farm is preferable to trucking them to slaughter, without food and water, the majority suffering from broken bones and other injuries incurred in the course of being cramped in cages and roughly handled.
However, a key welfare requirement for such on-farm disposal is that the hens be killed in their cages rather than pulled from the cages, thrown into front-end loaders, and dumped into huge bins while fully conscious, there to be suffocated with carbon dioxide.
“The system may be cost effective, but it cannot be called humane,” says Karen Davis, President of United Poultry Concerns, an organization that promotes the compassionate treatment of domestic fowl. “If producers really want to reduce the suffering of the birds, they will kill the birds in the cages using argon or nitrogen. That is not only what conscience but science dictates.”
http://www.upc-online.org/nr/33005co2.htm
first article that turned up in a search, one of very very very many
The egg producers claim that, in addition to being cheap and efficient, CO2 is “a very humane way to handle the birds.” However, this claim conflicts with scientific evidence showing that CO2 causes extreme suffering.
In a seminar presented at the US Department of Agriculture on December 16, 2004, Dr. Mohan Raj, Senior Research Fellow in the Farm Animal Division of the School of Clinical Veterinary Science at the University of Bristol in England, described the effects of CO2 on the body. CO2 induces breathlessness – a subjective distress in breathing known as dyspnea. According to Dr. Raj, dyspnea in both birds and mammals “activates brain regions associated with pain and induces an emotional response of panic.”
This is because, while CO2 increases the rate and depth of breathing to expel CO2 from the lungs, breathing actually increases the intake of CO2, and thus the desire to breathe to expel the noxious CO2 gas causes slow, painful suffocation.
In contrast, a gaseous stun/kill system based on the use of the inert gases argon or nitrogen, known as Controlled Atmosphere Stunning, eliminates or greatly reduces the suffering caused by pure CO2. Whereas CO2 induces painful suffocation, gases like argon and nitrogen induce a lack of oxygen, or anoxia, resulting in a painless death, according to Dr. Raj.
The crucial difference between anoxia (lack of oxygen) and dyspnea (breathlessness) is that, unlike anoxia, for which birds and mammals lack chemical receptors, suffocation involves receptors that register the physical separation of the upper respiratory tract from the outside atmosphere. In experiments in North America and the UK, chickens and turkeys exposed to high (40 percent or more) levels of CO2 “gasp, shake their heads, and stretch their necks to breathe.”
In an email dispatch to animal protectionists on March 26, Dr. Raj reiterated that exposure to carbon dioxide is “distressing and painful to animals and therefore should be avoided.” Alternatively, he said that end-of-lay-hens could be killed with less suffering in systems supplied with a mixture of 80% by volume argon and 20% by volume carbon dioxide – a mixture “universally available as a welding gas mixture.”
Welfarists agree that killing the hens on-farm is preferable to trucking them to slaughter, without food and water, the majority suffering from broken bones and other injuries incurred in the course of being cramped in cages and roughly handled.
However, a key welfare requirement for such on-farm disposal is that the hens be killed in their cages rather than pulled from the cages, thrown into front-end loaders, and dumped into huge bins while fully conscious, there to be suffocated with carbon dioxide.
“The system may be cost effective, but it cannot be called humane,” says Karen Davis, President of United Poultry Concerns, an organization that promotes the compassionate treatment of domestic fowl. “If producers really want to reduce the suffering of the birds, they will kill the birds in the cages using argon or nitrogen. That is not only what conscience but science dictates.”
http://www.upc-online.org/nr/33005co2.htm
first article that turned up in a search, one of very very very many
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yes but that article only seems to represent prolonged exposure to low levels of carbon dioxide. the 'humane' method is to initially induce narcosis and then death. narcosis in rats and mice can be achieved in a matter of seconds, barely enough time to induce a panic effect. Co2 is an accepted humane method of euthanasia of rodents.
JJS.
Well-Known Member
danny boy- probably not a good idea. I wouldn't be using normal rubber gloves either, they can still conduct electricity. Won't get into it, but not a good idea.
Snake Catcher Victoria
Almost Legendary
On the show last night i liked the idea of the see through gas chamber they used for the male chickens..
watching the faces in the audience was amusing for me to.
In australian meat bird processors, the chooks are hung by the feet, go on a conveyor belt through electrified water, which stuns them..Then a mechanial claw comes down and opens the throat so they can bleed out..further along the ladies with the hairnets and the gloves pull the insides out, sorting each bit into its own chute..hearts,,livers ect..
They get plucked by a machine that is like two huge rubber tyres that the bodies roll around in untill free of most of the feather...Fun place to work...not
watching the faces in the audience was amusing for me to.
In australian meat bird processors, the chooks are hung by the feet, go on a conveyor belt through electrified water, which stuns them..Then a mechanial claw comes down and opens the throat so they can bleed out..further along the ladies with the hairnets and the gloves pull the insides out, sorting each bit into its own chute..hearts,,livers ect..
They get plucked by a machine that is like two huge rubber tyres that the bodies roll around in untill free of most of the feather...Fun place to work...not
Forensick
Very Well-Known Member
CO2 isn't humanely accepted by anyone who has done any research into it...
that article isn't my basis of evidence, i just said its the first of the thousands of articles you will find stating that CO2, despite common opinion, IS NOT painless, and is far from humane
that article isn't my basis of evidence, i just said its the first of the thousands of articles you will find stating that CO2, despite common opinion, IS NOT painless, and is far from humane
mckellar007
Very Well-Known Member
the electric shock didnt kill the chicken, it just knocked it unconcious, that way it could be bleed out. its seen as humane because after the shock, the chicken no longer feels any pain. so unless your planning on clonking them after zapping them, its pretty much pointless.
You need to contact the AVMA and get them to change the industry standard
and i am sure the American Veterinary medical Association did there research before they released their AVMA panel on Euthanasia.
http://casemed.case.edu/ora/arc/Text Documents/AVMA_panel_Euthnasia.pdf
in which they have listed C02 as an acceptable method for many species.
When people pass out from lack of oxygen/build up of CO2, they don't go through pain, do they? They just get weak and drowsy. Once you're unconcious you're not suffering. It seems odd that all this research suggests it's so painful. If you do it to a sleeping animal it won't even wake them up, even if it takes several minutes or hours.
I still like clonking.
I've just had someone contact me asking if drowning is okay. If it wasn't so horrid, the descriptions would be so funny! (For the record, drowning isn't nice, please don't do it).
I still like clonking.
I've just had someone contact me asking if drowning is okay. If it wasn't so horrid, the descriptions would be so funny! (For the record, drowning isn't nice, please don't do it).
JJS.
Well-Known Member
I don't know heaps about CO2. I know its effect on humans. I wouldn't be trusting ANY internet articles. To explain as basically as i can i know that a build up of CO2 induces a breathing response, not lack of oxygen. So i would guess it is similar to drowning.
This makes me laugh
The article doesn't state any year, but this fact has been known for a long time.
I think asphyxia wouldn't be a very painful death compared to many others, it could even be painless if the victim becomes unconscious before the onset of asphyxia has been noticed, afterwards resulting in death from lack of oxygen to brain.
When i was younger i nearly drowned, i fell unconscious, if my old man hadn't of saved me i would have died from lack of oxygen as i was underwater where no breathing response would help me. While i was underwater the breathing response kicked in, taking in water before losing consciousness, other than the urge to breath i would have to say it was far from painful.
This makes me laugh
That is exactly what would be expected.
The article doesn't state any year, but this fact has been known for a long time.
I think asphyxia wouldn't be a very painful death compared to many others, it could even be painless if the victim becomes unconscious before the onset of asphyxia has been noticed, afterwards resulting in death from lack of oxygen to brain.
When i was younger i nearly drowned, i fell unconscious, if my old man hadn't of saved me i would have died from lack of oxygen as i was underwater where no breathing response would help me. While i was underwater the breathing response kicked in, taking in water before losing consciousness, other than the urge to breath i would have to say it was far from painful.
Forensick
Very Well-Known Member
that is been and has been done by many organisations
and this isn't based off "a single internet article" its based on years of research, by numerous groups, published in numerous journals
Earthling
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Ive heard the few seconds after you breath in water until unconsciousness, is a somewhat pleasant experience....true? :|
slim6y
Almost Legendary
Just like when your lungs were filled with amniotic fluid - takes you back to a time when you were safe and nothing could harm you... That does sound kind of pleasant!
caustichumor
Very Well-Known Member
We need Phillip Nitschke on the case, and perhaps PETA they seem to be a group with a level head on their shoulders..
Exactly, there is a fairly simple experiment that can be done at home to demonstrate the painless procedure of a gradual introduction of increased levels of CO2 to a mammal, and there is the key....a gradual increase in CO2 volume rather than flooding the chamber with it.
Rebreathing is a demonstration that can be carried out with a non-porous bag. SImply cover your nose and mouth and breath into and out of the bag, you will begin to feel drowsy but feel no pain. (By the way, don't try this alone because if you over do it you could pass out). This is an experiment carried out in early level University physiology practicals as well as in high school science classes I would imagine.
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jessb
Very Well-Known Member
LOL imagine their response to a thread like this! Not only are be being arrogant humans believing that we can keep animals for our own entertainment purposes (keeping pets is evil according to PETA) we are discussing methods of killing their food! They would probably prefer we had vegetarian snakes - tofumice anyone?
Philip Nitschke would be advocating we go to Mexico to purchase painless barbituates to euth the mice!
Forensick
Very Well-Known Member
pffft....
my GF is vegn, and a member of PETA.... i remember the first time she saw vegan cat food....
she went nuts! (it was in a vegan store)
she stormed out going on about how those people should have their animals seized, calling them cruel, and saying the RSPA should charge them with animal cruelty.
eitherway, there is more scientific evidence to support CO2's inhumanity than its humanity...
that said, on small scale (ie. us) i am "ok" with it.... they are animals that would die of asphyxiation in a few seconds if they were alive anyway....
-i would also have concerns about the nitrogen and argon affecting my snake
but in reference to chicks etc.... when "euthing" animals that do not need to die, and are being killed on a massive scale, and not for food, i think it is unethical to use a method the evidence indicate is inhumane, when the same evidence offers humane alternatives (ie argon gas)
my GF is vegn, and a member of PETA.... i remember the first time she saw vegan cat food....
she went nuts! (it was in a vegan store)
she stormed out going on about how those people should have their animals seized, calling them cruel, and saying the RSPA should charge them with animal cruelty.
eitherway, there is more scientific evidence to support CO2's inhumanity than its humanity...
that said, on small scale (ie. us) i am "ok" with it.... they are animals that would die of asphyxiation in a few seconds if they were alive anyway....
-i would also have concerns about the nitrogen and argon affecting my snake
but in reference to chicks etc.... when "euthing" animals that do not need to die, and are being killed on a massive scale, and not for food, i think it is unethical to use a method the evidence indicate is inhumane, when the same evidence offers humane alternatives (ie argon gas)
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