Do reptiles need mental stimulation?

[Sdaji]

SlothHead: Cheers Glad we could clear that up

 

[hydropython]

Could you provide some real evidence or atleast a credible theory to support this? Saying snakes have emotions is little to do with anthomorphisation, unless there is a good reason to think they dont, being stupid animals does not somehow exclude them from having emotions.

Its called anthropomorphism. Humans do it a lot. Its one of the side effects of our advanced neurological capacity. We have the ablility to place ourselves in the position of others and empathise. Snakes however, do not exhibit such neurological development. Given that the areas of brain which are similar govern the involuntary actions such as heart rhythm and breathing and digestion to propose that the brains of reptiles are capable of self awareness and introspection is laughable. Both of these aspects are necessary for emotions to exist.

Saying snakes have emotions has absolutely everything to do with anthropomorphism. Its the only explanation for the belief that they do. Emotions are actually detrimental to a predators survival. Except for the interactions within a social grouping, imagine if you had these ridiculous thoughts like snakes have emotions in a world where you had to hunt and kill to eat. It wouldn't be too beneficial to your survival.

In addition, not even all humans have emotions, so why on earth do you and others imagine that other animals have emotions.

 

[Earthling]

Its called anthropomorphism. Humans do it a lot. Its one of the side effects of our advanced neurological capacity. We have the ablility to place ourselves in the position of others and empathise. Snakes however, do not exhibit such neurological development. Given that the areas of brain which are similar govern the involuntary actions such as heart rhythm and breathing and digestion to propose that the brains of reptiles are capable of self awareness and introspection is laughable. Both of these aspects are necessary for emotions to exist.

Saying snakes have emotions has absolutely everything to do with anthropomorphism. Its the only explanation for the belief that they do. Emotions are actually detrimental to a predators survival. Except for the interactions within a social grouping, imagine if you had these ridiculous thoughts like snakes have emotions in a world where you had to hunt and kill to eat. It wouldn't be too beneficial to your survival.

In addition, not even all humans have emotions, so why on earth do you and others imagine that other animals have emotions.

I cannot for the life of me see how emotions and self-awareness and introspection are connected. Just because I have an instinctive emotion to have sex and thus continue the species does not mean I have self-awareness. Does my dog have self-awareness? I know he has major instinctial emotions to have sex with other dogs when they are on heat. Your argument would say he has.
What drives a snake to have sex and further the species? Instincts which often translate as emotions, subsequently become the drive in animals to make them do what they are here for...to further their species.
Otherwise can you define instinct and define excatly how it makes an animal have sex, if a drive such as emotion is not involved?

Lastly what makes a snake want to kill and eat if not desire, hunger?

Ever heard of maternal instinct? Tell human mothers it has nothing to do with emotions....

 

[cris]

Its called anthropomorphism. Humans do it a lot. Its one of the side effects of our advanced neurological capacity. We have the ablility to place ourselves in the position of others and empathise. Snakes however, do not exhibit such neurological development. Given that the areas of brain which are similar govern the involuntary actions such as heart rhythm and breathing and digestion to propose that the brains of reptiles are capable of self awareness and introspection is laughable. Both of these aspects are necessary for emotions to exist.

Saying snakes have emotions has absolutely everything to do with anthropomorphism. Its the only explanation for the belief that they do. Emotions are actually detrimental to a predators survival. Except for the interactions within a social grouping, imagine if you had these ridiculous thoughts like snakes have emotions in a world where you had to hunt and kill to eat. It wouldn't be too beneficial to your survival.

In addition, not even all humans have emotions, so why on earth do you and others imagine that other animals have emotions.

A simple "no" would have done.

 

[hydropython]

I cannot for the life of me see how emotions and self-awareness and introspection are connected. Just because I have an instinctive emotion to have sex and thus continue the species does not mean I have self-awareness. Does my dog have self-awareness? I know he has major instinctial emotions to have sex with other dogs when they are on heat. Your argument would say he has.
What drives a snake to have sex and further the species? Instincts which often translate as emotions, subsequently become the drive in animals to make them do what they are here for...to further their species.
Otherwise can you define instinct and define excatly how it makes an animal have sex, if a drive such as emotion is not involved?

Lastly what makes a snake want to kill and eat if not desire, hunger?

Ever heard of maternal instinct? Tell human mothers it has nothing to do with emotions....

You don't have an instinctive emotion to have sex. You have a genetic drive to do so, thus the attraction to the opposite sex individuals of the species you fall into. Not all of them, but ones thatprovide a good genetic match for you. We dont choose attraction, or who we are attracted to, genetics takes care of that for us. That is not to say that there is only one potential match for one individual. Its why people have sex with many partners. Only the choice of which of those potential partners you will be with is free, the other aspects of attraction are hard wired through many many millenia of natural selection. You are self aware, your dog is not.. No, my argument is that a dog will have sex with another dog due to physiological changes elicited within the cortex when your dog senses the presence of pheromones related to sexual availability and fertility in other dogs. The behaviour witnessed as some male dogs mount and thrust at other male dogs is a power and position within the pack social behaviour. These have nothing to do with emotion. the pheromones trigger a cascade of signals which influence the dog to behave in a sexual fashion.

Its similar to mate choice in nature. Birds and many other animals do so and its not so an individual falls in love with the mating partner, love is an emotion, and emotions are almost exclusively human, the only other animals which have been documented to exhibit them naturally are other new world apes. The assigning of behaviours upon animals as due to emotions is ludicrous. Dogs have been assigned emotions, but such behaviours are generally related to their nature as a pack animal. Such behaviours are not exhibited for any other reason than to maintain position within a pack by mimicking the expressions and behaviours exhibited by the alpha animals - in domestic circumstance humans.

Instinct does not translate as emotion, though in humans, emotion can be seen as symptomatic of instinct. We assign the products of instinct and genetic drive to be emotion, which can only be done as a self aware and introspective species.
Emotions are merely the words we attach to the feeling we get, that we dont really know where they come from.

People say that snakes can be aggressive, (as an example) when if you look at the situation realistically, they are actually fearful and attempting to ward off damage by looking as big and nasty as possible. Either that or they have no ability to relate the size of an animal to the size of a meal they can realistically consume until they try to eat it after its dead. The snake is not trying to intimidate you, its not feeling all big and tough its merely attempting to get fed, or prevent getting killed.

What makes a snake kill and eat?? It can't be hunger, because snakes seem to gorge themselves on 5the available food supply because there is no reliablility in a natural ecosystem. they don't know when they will be able to eat again. Desire is a human term, and can only be attributed to animals through anthropomorphism. Again, the smells exuded by a prey item will send a snake into feed mode like a trigger. I made the mistake once of not washing my hands properly after feeding one python while feeding another. The snake got the whole way down my thumb till it couldn't go any further. It was a subconciously controlled reaction to the smell of the rat, not a true attempt to eat me.

Similarly, maternal instinct is not due to emotions, but emotions are the human manner of describing what we feel because we can define and think about them introspectively, because we are self aware enough to do so. Maternal instinct is not a product of emotion, emotions are a product of instinct. The instinct to ensure reproduction and the manner through which the genetic traits of the parents are continued. Besides, your argument is again flawed because i personally know of a significant number of women who would like, or would have liked soon after birth to kill their children. Post partum depression is a widespread phenomena.

 

[daniel1234]

I think a reptiles idea of mental stimulation is based more on a sense of security, and thus having some items such as branches, rocks, hides, and if need be a substrate. Although my MD's do enjoy looking through the cars guide

 

[xScarlettex]

whats to say that animals dont have emotions? Theres no way of proving it either way. Everyone on this site seems so sure that handling your reptile causes it to 'stress'. If animals have no emotions then how can they feel stress? Some may say that its not an emotional response, its a physiological response where the body produces too much corticosteroid. Their behaviour may be a reaction to the fact that due to the exposure of this steroid their bodies are decreasing the inflammation response, increasing the metabolism of carbs, fats and proteins, their heart rates slowly decreasing, theyre losing their appetite, their immune system is depressing, theyre producing high quantities of stomach acid etc etc. But then what stimulated the corticosteroid to be released in the first place? Im not saying its necessarily an emotional response, it may be a chemical response but animals react to stimuli and lack of stimuli regardless. Otherwise how would a snake get stressed by the stimulation of being handled? Its because of this reaction to stimuli that environmental enrichment is an important part of animal husbandry.
How many of you are asleep at 3am while your nocturnal animal paces backwards and forwards around its plastic tub that probably isnt even big enough for it to extend its full body length? Are you really watching your animal when its active to see what behaviours its exhibiting? And if it is behaving stereotypically then are you really providing all its needs? Because stereotypic behaviours are not exhibited in the wild.

 

[hydropython]

whats to say that animals dont have emotions? Theres no way of proving it either way. Everyone on this site seems so sure that handling your reptile causes it to 'stress'. If animals have no emotions then how can they feel stress? Some may say that its not an emotional response, its a physiological response where the body produces too much corticosteroid. Their behaviour may be a reaction to the fact that due to the exposure of this steroid their bodies are decreasing the inflammation response, increasing the metabolism of carbs, fats and proteins, their heart rates slowly decreasing, theyre losing their appetite, their immune system is depressing, theyre producing high quantities of stomach acid etc etc. But then what stimulated the corticosteroid to be released in the first place? Im not saying its necessarily an emotional response, it may be a chemical response but animals react to stimuli and lack of stimuli regardless. Otherwise how would a snake get stressed by the stimulation of being handled? Its because of this reaction to stimuli that environmental enrichment is an important part of animal husbandry.
How many of you are asleep at 3am while your nocturnal animal paces backwards and forwards around its plastic tub that probably isnt even big enough for it to extend its full body length? Are you really watching your animal when its active to see what behaviours its exhibiting? And if it is behaving stereotypically then are you really providing all its needs? Because stereotypic behaviours are not exhibited in the wild.

How do they feel stressed?? Simple. Stress is NOT an emotion. Stress is a physiological response to an environment full of dangerous or unusual stimuli.
It is shortlived, and it can be conditioned away.

But that still doesn't make it an emotion.

Maybe you should rethink your last post, it was incoherent.

 

[xScarlettex]

How do they feel stressed?? Simple. Stress is NOT an emotion. Stress is a physiological response to an environment full of dangerous or unusual stimuli.
It is shortlived, and it can be conditioned away.

But that still doesn't make it an emotion.

Maybe you should rethink your last post, it was incoherent.

If it was 'incoherent' then why agree with what i said?? "Stress is a physiological response to ....stimuli". I wasnt saying that animals have emotional responses to stimuli. I simply stated theres no evidence to prove either way but the fact is.. animals respond to stimuli!!

 

[cris]

Hydropython, i would suggest you find out what the word emotion acutally means, you seem to think it is somehow restrcited to complex human emotions, which is complete rubbish. To suggest dogs dont have emotions is quite laughable.

If snakes did not have any emotions it would be humane to skin them alive and burn them. If they dont have emotions they couldnt suffer.

 

[daniel1234]

Hydropython, i would suggest you find out what the word emotion acutally means, you seem to think it is somehow restrcited to complex human emotions, which is complete rubbish. To suggest dogs dont have emotions is quite laughable.

Especially if you have one. I should proberbly go back and read what you guys are on about, as I read through this thread a couple days ago, and really need to head off to work. Although on the surface, if this is where the thread has gone, I all animals respond emotionally even if it is more of an instinctive response for some.

I remember in school we argued with the teacher about this, she was saying that (dogs and cats in particular) can't show emotion as they are only learned behaviours to get what they want. At the end of the day I think we all do things to get what we want and it's the emotion attached to the action that feeds the need to continue doing it. If that makes sense.

 

[Earthling]

You don't have an instinctive emotion to have sex. You have a genetic drive to do so, thus the attraction to the opposite sex individuals of the species you fall into. Not all of them, but ones thatprovide a good genetic match for you. We dont choose attraction, or who we are attracted to, genetics takes care of that for us. That is not to say that there is only one potential match for one individual. Its why people have sex with many partners. Only the choice of which of those potential partners you will be with is free, the other aspects of attraction are hard wired through many many millenia of natural selection. You are self aware, your dog is not.. No, my argument is that a dog will have sex with another dog due to physiological changes elicited within the cortex when your dog senses the presence of pheromones related to sexual availability and fertility in other dogs. The behaviour witnessed as some male dogs mount and thrust at other male dogs is a power and position within the pack social behaviour. These have nothing to do with emotion. the pheromones trigger a cascade of signals which influence the dog to behave in a sexual fashion.

1.
2.

Its similar to mate choice in nature. Birds and many other animals do so and its not so an individual falls in love with the mating partner, love is an emotion, and emotions are almost exclusively human, the only other animals which have been documented to exhibit them naturally are other new world apes. The assigning of behaviours upon animals as due to emotions is ludicrous. Dogs have been assigned emotions, but such behaviours are generally related to their nature as a pack animal. Such behaviours are not exhibited for any other reason than to maintain position within a pack by mimicking the expressions and behaviours exhibited by the alpha animals - in domestic circumstance humans.

3.

Instinct does not translate as emotion, though in humans, emotion can be seen as symptomatic of instinct. We assign the products of instinct and genetic drive to be emotion, which can only be done as a self aware and introspective species.
Emotions are merely the words we attach to the feeling we get, that we dont really know where they come from.
4.

People say that snakes can be aggressive, (as an example) when if you look at the situation realistically, they are actually fearful and attempting to ward off damage by looking as big and nasty as possible. Either that or they have no ability to relate the size of an animal to the size of a meal they can realistically consume until they try to eat it after its dead. The snake is not trying to intimidate you, its not feeling all big and tough its merely attempting to get fed, or prevent getting killed.

5.

What makes a snake kill and eat?? It can't be hunger, because snakes seem to gorge themselves on 5the available food supply because there is no reliablility in a natural ecosystem. they don't know when they will be able to eat again. Desire is a human term, and can only be attributed to animals through anthropomorphism. Again, the smells exuded by a prey item will send a snake into feed mode like a trigger. I made the mistake once of not washing my hands properly after feeding one python while feeding another. The snake got the whole way down my thumb till it couldn't go any further. It was a subconciously controlled reaction to the smell of the rat, not a true attempt to eat me.

6.

Similarly, maternal instinct is not due to emotions, but emotions are the human manner of describing what we feel because we can define and think about them introspectively, because we are self aware enough to do so. Maternal instinct is not a product of emotion, emotions are a product of instinct. The instinct to ensure reproduction and the manner through which the genetic traits of the parents are continued. Besides, your argument is again flawed because i personally know of a significant number of women who would like, or would have liked soon after birth to kill their children. Post partum depression is a widespread phenomena.
7.

1.You say I have a genetic drive to have sex. That would be equal to a instinctive drive as instincts are from genetics. Sometimes this sexual drive just happens when I see a woman I dont even know...instinctive response...yet I still feel an emotion.
Dogs you say, are using a stimuli from pheromones for the drive to have sex. From that drive or physiological changes elicited within the cortex, sounds very instinctive to me. Just because the dog automatically has the drive as of its physiological maekup and instinctial responses does not negate emotions.

2.Male dogs having sex with each other is a power based behaviour. Power is a very strong emotion.

3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion_in_animals
Read the canine point half way down.

4. I agree, emotions are and can be syptomatic of instinct. Just because we can asign a word emotion for the feeling we have and other animals cannot, does not mean we have emotions and other animals dont.

5. At last we agree! You say "...they are actually fearfull...."
FEAR IS AN EMOTION!

6. Yes your right, it may not be hunger. Could it be Desire? The anthropomorphism answer you give for my desire answer is not adequate. Anthropomorphism. isnder considerable stress in the rest of the debate and I will use all the above to argue this is also the case with desire.

7. Emotions are the maternal instinct coming forth. Yes, in a way emotions could be said to be the product of instinct , the product of the inbuilt instinct in us.
My argument is not flawed becasue of post-partum depression. Just because in 5-25% (depending on which study you go for) of women get post-partum depression, does not negate the fact that many women do also have a maternal instinct. 95-75% of women one could theorise have a maternal instinct. Therefore 95-75% of women have an emotional response to a genetic instinct. Many animals also show a maternal instinct, so one could theorise that these animals will also feel emotions.

For those who are religous in nature:
Just because the bible says we are made in the image of God and humans are to rule the earth, does not mean humans are number one and all else is poo. Rather it means we have considerable power which we can use to benefit all, not just humans, if used wisely. However, if we become arogant and think animals are non-emotional beings and hence worthy of little respect, we will become not rulers, but destroyers and harbingers of misery.

 

[hydropython]

Hydropython, i would suggest you find out what the word emotion acutally means, you seem to think it is somehow restrcited to complex human emotions, which is complete rubbish. To suggest dogs dont have emotions is quite laughable.

If snakes did not have any emotions it would be humane to skin them alive and burn them. If they dont have emotions they couldnt suffer.

Rubbish. Emotion and pain response are very different things.

Dogs DO NOT HAVE EMOTIONS. I've kept them my entire life, ive never yet seen a dog exhibiting emotions.

Ive seen dogs exhibiting learned behaviours in order to fit into a pack, but emotions are very different from this.

Simians are the only group of animals capable of emotional response, and even this is questionable in the extent of emotions felt by animals such as chimps and orangutans.

I would suggest you learn to tie your shoes before getting involved in arguments with your intellectual betters.

As for the dictionaries which attempt to classify fear as an emotion, they are incorrect. Fear is a survival mechanism, not an emotion.

 

[hydropython]

power IS NOT AN EMOTION. Pack or social dominance is merely a method of ensuring your genetic material is the inherited version. Humans and chimps have many many sexual partners and as such, must have enlarged penises and much much higher sperm counts. Gorillas on the other hand do not exhibit such large (for their size) gonads nor a high sperm count. They maintain dominance and reproductive success through physical male on male combat.

point 4? YES IT DOES.

FEAR IS NOT AN EMOTION.

 

[Earthling]

power IS NOT AN EMOTION. Pack or social dominance is merely a method of ensuring your genetic material is the inherited version. Humans and chimps have many many sexual partners and as such, must have enlarged penises and much much higher sperm counts. Gorillas on the other hand do not exhibit such large (for their size) gonads nor a high sperm count. They maintain dominance and reproductive success through physical male on male combat.

point 4? YES IT DOES.

FEAR IS NOT AN EMOTION.

Well..........I will happily leave you with your delusions. Enjoy the day.

 

[hydropython]

I'm not the deluded one believing that animals experience creations of the human mind - emotion.

Jump off a cliff

 

[xScarlettex]

Ok straight from dictionary.com

Emotion-
–noun
1. an affective state of consciousness in which joy, sorrow, fear, hate, or the like, is experienced, as distinguished from cognitive and volitional states of consciousness.
2. any of the feelings of joy, sorrow, fear, hate, love, etc.
3. any strong agitation of the feelings actuated by experiencing love, hate, fear, etc., and usually accompanied by certain physiological changes, as increased heartbeat or respiration, and often overt manifestation, as crying or shaking.
4. an instance of this.
5. something that causes such a reaction: the powerful emotion of a great symphony.

And from Wiki-
Emotion-
An emotion is a term for a mental and physiological state associated with a wide variety of feelings, thoughts, and behavior. Emotions are subjective experiences, or experienced from a individual point of view. Emotion is often associated with mood, temperament, personality, and disposition.

Hydropython you state stress is not an emotion but it has mental and physiological repercussions and clearly falls under both these definitions.