Healthy Goldfish to feed my Golden Tree Snake. How to minimise risk ?

[PythonLegs]

As an experienced fishkeeper I've bred my fair share of live food over the years.
Have you considered breeding your own? I would recommend breeding convicts or brassiliensis. Both bombproof and will breed on a wet sponge. Breeding your own is one way to guarantee your food is safe.

Yep, agreed- breeding yourself is the way to go, from what I understand the O.P is getting onto this..baby steps! BUT- although brasillies and cons are easy to breed, they are cichlids, and cichlids=spines. Last thing you want is a half swallowed fish getting a dorsal spine stuck in the snakes throat..swordtails were a great choice.

Also, congrats on getting her to eat a pinky, mate- just be aware that in the wild GTS eat frogs and fish almost exclusively, with the occaisional raided birds nest, so pinkys should be pretty far between due to fat content. As someone else said, day old quails may be a better option if you're looking to get away from fish.

And lastly- it's been quite a while since we've had a decent fight on here..wonder if I can post this before the thread gets locked...

 

[gillsy]

HonestPirate: I am that 'lovely female employee' you are talking about and I have visible tattoos, piercings, wear black out of work uniform and noone at the shop treats me any different so I don't think your tattoo and black shirt had ANYTHING to do with how they treated you. I imagine it would more be the fact that the woman who manages the aquarium section comes down pretty hard on employees who do not follow her rules and instructions so asking them to sell you those fish as feeders actually puts their job at risk. I tried to tell you that and give you advice on how to purchase those fish and yet you still try and make the person who helped you look like they had some kind of personal vendetta against you .. someone trying to do and keep their job is not a crime.

I did not roll my eyes at you, I was concerned that your snake would not take it and that you would be wasting your money, so sorry for trying to look out for you. I still don't think they need pinkies as part of their diet. You would be better off doing small quail as a treat seeing as they are far more likely to eat birds in the wild than small mammals. They would also be more nutritious than pinkies anyway. I find the way you portray me quite rude. I was not trying to be rude or condescending to you I was trying to help. I had no way of knowing what your level of experience was and honestly we deal with a lot of people who know next to nothing so I was just trying to give you the best advice I could given the circumstances and you have spun the situation to make me look like I was just trying to be smug and up myself. I am glad you did not waste your money, but keep up with the fish and maybe try quail as a treat instead.

No need to come into store to show me pictures, does not sound like you want to deal with me anyway. Just post them here, I am sure I will see them.

I believe you are wrong there, it is far better to be feeding them rodents as a staple and fish as a supplement, they put breeding condition on far easier by feeding rodents. Quails are good but make their already running feaces even worse and they contain alot of fat and cholesterol and should be used as a condition for breeding not as a base of a diet. Fish contain great stuff but it is far better to use rodents, cheaper and more convinient. Also the hair in rodents bine some of the excretia to make it slightly easier to clean.

 

[HonestPirate]

Thanks for confirming my sentiments mate and getting this thread back on topic.

I plan on using fish as a regular; twice a week feed; and supplementing her diet with a little rodent action and the occasional bird.

Now; you better stand back Gillsy Hell hath no fury....

I'm outta here before the next round.

 

[Tari-Q]

I believe you are wrong there, it is far better to be feeding them rodents as a staple and fish as a supplement, they put breeding condition on far easier by feeding rodents. Quails are good but make their already running feaces even worse and they contain alot of fat and cholesterol and should be used as a condition for breeding not as a base of a diet. Fish contain great stuff but it is far better to use rodents, cheaper and more convinient. Also the hair in rodents bine some of the excretia to make it slightly easier to clean.

I was only suggesting quail as a treat. Older rodents are ok as well, but as far as pinkies go there is not a lot to them nutritionally and they have a high fat percentage. I think that getting them onto rodents because they are cheaper and more convenient is not really a valid argument when it is well documented that their natural diet is mainly fish, skinks and amphibians. I am not trying to start (or continue) an argument .. it is just my personal opinion that if you are keeping an animal then you should feed it what is best for it, not what is most convenient or what will make it grow the fastest so you can breed it. I also fully acknowledge that there is not just one way to do things and plenty of people do things completely differently to one another and still all have happy, healthy animals.

Just an interesting point about their poop .. I have mine set up in a semi-aquatic enclosure so most of its poo ends up in the filtered water. I do a water change at least once a week, so cleaning up after them is really quite easy .. even more so than some of my pythons who have taken a liking to painting -_-

HonestPirate: I will just say this; If I had come on here complaining about you and saying some of the things you said about me, I imagine you would not have liked it. I am all for a good debate and exchanging husbandry techniques .. my problem was the way you were speaking about me and the way you twisted my words.

 

[gillsy]

Tari, can you show me documented evidence where Green Tree Snakes eat fish as a staple diet? I'd love to know how they get them up in the trees.

It's not always best to replicate their natural diet. Their natural diet food stuffs have a hell of a lot more nutritional value then anything we can provide, and rodents are still one of the best captive diet food stuffs. You run the risk of somenela posoining with quail, I lost a sandy to that.

D

 

[waruikazi]

Gillsy i have seen golden phase 'fishing' in the past, one just last week actually.

It was doing it's thing in a spring that could also be described as fish soup, i didn't see it catch anything but the number of fish in this spot meant there were no frogs or tadpoles.

Tari, can you show me documented evidence where Green Tree Snakes eat fish as a staple diet? I'd love to know how they get them up in the trees.

It's not always best to replicate their natural diet. Their natural diet food stuffs have a hell of a lot more nutritional value then anything we can provide, and rodents are still one of the best captive diet food stuffs. You run the risk of somenela posoining with quail, I lost a sandy to that.

D

And i've also never found a GTS that has ingested a bird of any kind. Only frogs.

 

[gillsy]

Hey Waz,

Funny you say that, my gold ones were more interested in fish then the green ones. But golds were also easier to get onto rodents and anything else is shoved in its face!

Being Sydney the fish aren't as loaded as they are up there, which would make sense that southern ones tend to feed more on frogs and reptiles.

 

[Flaviruthless]

It's not always best to replicate their natural diet.
D

Hi Gillsy,
I don't quite follow your reasoning behind not replicating their natural diet as closely as possible; could you please explain this to me? I know that sometimes in a captive environment it is not feasible to feed them items they would normally hunt in the wild, however, surely it makes sense to try your best to replicate what they have evolved over thousands of years to do? You mention that it's cheaper and easier to use rodents – don’t you think that you would be far better off setting your snake up as well as possible better and giving it the best possible nutrition than being a bit stingy? You also mention that it's the fur in the rodent that binds the faeces together; this thread was mentioning pinkies, which have no fur and very little nutrition (in comparison to fully boned, adult animals), without the fur is it still worth feeding pinkies?
Legitimate questions, pm me if you want.
Cheers.

 

[Tsubakai]

If you wanted to replicate CTS natural diet then you would feed them predominantly on frogs with other prey items as 'treats'. Imagine how well that would go down if that was what you chose to do and it became common knowledge.

 

[HonestPirate]

As much as I love a good debate, I think it is safe to say that the most humane and closely replicated natural diet choices; it is best to feed my girl a foundation diet of healthy fish, and that the occasional treat of small rodent or the odd quail is not going to be too harmful in moderation. Easy. Cheers.

 

[Tari-Q]

Agreed. And Tsubakai: Every single website and book I have read on CTS says they feed on a combination of amphibians fish and skinks. And yes, feeding skinks or amphibians is not a legal or ethical option so therefore that leaves fish as a staple based off what they eat in the wild. As HonestPirate said, using fish as a staple and then rodents and/or quail as treats (especially for older and breeding animals) is probably the best we can do in captivity. I still don't think that pinkies are necessary, but like I said earlier, everyone does things their own way and as long as the animal is healthy etc then that is what is most important. If someone was insisting they would ONLY feed rodents I would probably object more, but then again when someone has their mind made up some comment on the internet is not very likely to change it.

Snakes are highly specialised animals. I have been amazed at the difference in metabolism between my CTS and my pythons. Feeding like a CTS is a python (a rodent once or twice a week) just does not make sense when they are so completely different.

As far as finding fish in trees -_- When I have found a CTS in the wild (which I have done countless times in my life) 9 times out of 10 I have seen them in water. My little CTS LOVES to swim. I have him set up in a semi-aquatic tank and I am so happy I decided to do it that way as he is thriving.

 

[NicG]

Although I know keepers that do it with larger snakes, I'd be wary of feeding rodents with fur to CTS, purely based on their natural diet.

Since the whole basis for this discussion starts with the whole Thiaminase issue, I thought I'd start a thread that was (only) a bit more scientific-based, rather than just anecdotal. So if anyone wants to add anything to that, please do so here: http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes-37/thiaminase-colubrids-172414/

 

[HonestPirate]

Thanks Nic; interesting read.

Tari- I have been considering a similar setup after seeing how much this girl loves the water. I would never have thought they would enjoy it so much had I not seen it myself. Not hard to see why fish is a major part of their diet in the wild considering how they take to water.

 

[waruikazi]

As far as finding fish in trees -_- When I have found a CTS in the wild (which I have done countless times in my life) 9 times out of 10 I have seen them in water. My little CTS LOVES to swim. I have him set up in a semi-aquatic tank and I am so happy I decided to do it that way as he is thriving.

I'm not discounting your anecdotes, particularly because i have seen the same thing. I just want to make the point that just because we've seen the majority of CTS in water sources doesn't mean that the majority of their diet is fish but it does lend support to the idea that fish make up a part of their diet, particularly during the drier part of the yeatr.

I would hazzard a guess that the reason you have seen so many in water is actually because they are just easier to spot when they are out of the trees.

Hi Gillsy,
I don't quite follow your reasoning behind not replicating their natural diet as closely as possible; could you please explain this to me? I know that sometimes in a captive environment it is not feasible to feed them items they would normally hunt in the wild, however, surely it makes sense to try your best to replicate what they have evolved over thousands of years to do? You mention that it's cheaper and easier to use rodents – don’t you think that you would be far better off setting your snake up as well as possible better and giving it the best possible nutrition than being a bit stingy? You also mention that it's the fur in the rodent that binds the faeces together; this thread was mentioning pinkies, which have no fur and very little nutrition (in comparison to fully boned, adult animals), without the fur is it still worth feeding pinkies?
Legitimate questions, pm me if you want.
Cheers.

That is an utter load of crap. Pinky mice and rats, have a higher nutritional value in everything except calcium than the adult animals do.

 

[Flaviruthless]

That is an utter load of crap. Pinky mice and rats, have a higher nutritional value in everything except calcium than the adult animals do.

Hi Waruikazi, did you have any more information on this? I.e. studies of composition vs age? I would be very interested if you did. Cheers.

 

[waruikazi]

Yup

Nutrition Feeder Mice | Nutrient Composition of Feeder Animals

 

[HonestPirate]

BAM. Nice Link G-man. cheers.

 

[waruikazi]

But unless your reptile is an elite athlete that requires maximum energy and nutritional gain for running (or sliding) a marathon then there will be no noticeable difference in the growth or health of that animal wether it is fed pinkies, fuzzies or adult mice and rats.

 

[Flaviruthless]

Cool, thanks for that - can easily admit when I am wrong, I was previously going off what I had been told by a few breeders.