Question for Toxinologist...

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Nicole

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...and everyone else, but I thought David could help me with this one.

We constantly hear about Australia's Fierce Snake as having the most potent venom in the world (of the terrestrial species of snakes), but often hear about another school of thought which suggests that the scale by which this is measured (effects on mice), is not entirely valid.

Can you help me out with this one.
What are the measures of toxicity and can these be extrapolated to give an overall rating of potency, or is the measure applicable only to toxin effects on certain species? Is the measure commonly applied only valid for mice, or is this indicative of say all mamals?

This is probably a stupid question, but I'm also curious, is there any snake venom that effects plant species?

If you can point me to further reading that the average Joe can understand, I'd love to give that a go too.

Thanks in advance,

Nicole
 
Um...Im curious Nicole, what does snake venom have to do with plants???
 
probably nothing, and i expect there would be no effect, just curious is all... can't hurt too much to ask, the worst that can happen is that i learn something whilst looking like a dill :)
 
lol. hmmm...intresting. maybe venom that begins digesting the victim may have similar effect on plant cells? not sure about oral application like a spray though. you might be on to something, invent a new weed control, who knows!

:D
 
Hi Nicole,

The standard measure of venom potency for many years was the mouse LD50 (LD50 = lethal dose that will kill 50% of uniform test animals in a given time period).

Essentially the protocol involves that groups of (typically) 4 or 6 mice of the same breed or strain that are of equal age and weight, and then injecting each mouse with a predetermined dose of venom or toxin. Normally this is done is series ... one group may receive 0.1mg, the next 0.15, the next 0.2 and so on ... the dose that kills 50% of a test group in the time period specified (from 4 to 24 or even 48 hours) is the LD50. Normal procedure requires that the result be reproducible in successive groups of mice a this dose.

The test is uniform and thus gives equality so that the only variable when comparing venoms from different species is the type of venom itself and the dose of that venom needed to achieve an LD50. It is however commonly argued that the test is only relevant in the species being tested and that physiological differences render it inconsequential in relation to other forms of life.

In recent times it has also been largely discontinued due to the ethical considerations surrounding the mass killing of (often) several hundred or even thousands of rodents to perform a full series of experiments. A number of alternative assays have been used that test the specific activities of venom: neurotoxicity, haemotoxicity, myotoxicity, procoagulant or anticoagulant function etc ... but the LD50 remains the test most quoted by people trying to define relative toxicity.

Now where does this all fit in with the inland taipan (Oxyuranus microlepidotus)???

In the late 1970's the late Professor Sutherland's research group at CSL performed LD50 tests to gain a measure of how certain species of Australian snakes ranked in comparative terms against some overseas snakes.

Using a protein known as bovine serum albumin as a diluent to help stabilise the venoms they found that the LD50 of the inland taipan was a mere 0.010mg/kg body weight in groups of 18-21 gram mice - the average venom yield of the species at that time was reportedly 44.1mg dry weight.

By comparison coastal taipans (Oxyuranus scutellatus) with an average venom yield of 120mg dry weight had an LD50 of 0.064mg/kg (6.4 times less toxic).

In mouse-killing terms an inland taipan could therefore theoretically kill 217,821 18-21 gram mice with 44 mg of venom. The maximum recorded yield of 110mg at that time would have been able to theoretically kill 544,554 18-21 gram mice.

By way of comparison the 120mg average yield of a coastal taipan would theoretically kill 94,488 18-21 gram mice. The maximum reported yield of 400mg would have been sufficent to take out 314,961 18-21 gram mice.

If we take the theoretical extrapolation of this data further, 244,975 mice weighing 18 grams each have a collective body mass of 4409.55 kilograms. This is approximately equivalent to 63 humans with equal body weight of 70 kilograms. The very generous extrapolation therefore is that an inland taipan may be capable of killing more than 60 average adult humans with the venom expressed in a single milking.

In the real world however it simply is not reasonable to attempt to compare the theoretical estimates of the number of mice a species may be capable of killing, with the ability to produce death in humans (or cats, dogs, horses or elephants for that matter). But what it does give us is a uniform means of comparing the relative toxicity of different species under equivalent test conditions in which the venom itself is the only variable ... and this does give a valid means of ranking the potential toxicity of those species.

The important caveat is that it does not give us a ranking that is applicable to different "test" species, or even to the same species using different routes of injection/administration.

As for the effects of snake venoms on plant species ... I have never heard of this being examined. There is however considerable work being done to attempt to identify plant compounds that neutralise snake venom toxins.

Anyway I hope that all this babble is comprehensive given the hour at which I am writing this. There are some links to PDF files re this subject at the bottom of the post. You could also visit my colleague Dr Bryan Fry's Website to see comparisons of toxicity tests via different routes of venom administration.

Fire away with further questions.

Cheers



David

REFERENCES:

Electrophoretic, enzyme, and preliminary toxicity studies of the venom of the small-scaled snake, Parademansia microlepidota (Serpentes:Elapidae), with additional data on its distribution. (1979) BROAD AJ, SUTHERLAND SK, TANNER C, COVACEVICH J. Mem. Qld. Mus. 19(3):319-29.

The lethality in mice of dangerous Australian and other snake venom. (1979) BROAD AJ, SUTHERLAND SK, COULTER AR. Toxicon 17:661-664.

Intravenous dose-lethality study of American pit viper venoms in mice using standardized methods. (1992) CONSROE P, GERRISH K, EGEN N, RUSSELL FE. Journal of Wilderness Medicine. 3:162-167.
 
Thankyou David, I appreciate you taking the time to answer.
Thanks also for the references and the web site, I'll get into those today!

PS. You must be even more of a night owl than me :)
 
Excellent info there David, thanks for posting it!!
And thanks to you too Nicole my sweet for asking the question!
Take care guys :)
 
That explanation is so well written that now even old slateman understand exactly what LD50 is.
 
wouldn't it be easier to just say how many humans can be killed from inland tiapan venom in the first place. i don't care how many mice it kills
 
Jails are full of prime candidates for testing of all kinds! unfortunatly, politicians with the balls to push for such idea are rarer than hens teeth!
 
Personally I'd rather test the politicians :twisted: ... most criminals are at least honest about the fact they are crooks... :shock:

Cheers


David
 
I meant killers, rapist, peadaphiles etc. ................Then politicians! :D
 
Slateman said:
That explanation is so well written that now even old slateman understand exactly what LD50 is.

I'm much more partial to LSD-25 myself. :twisted:

wattso said:
I meant killers, rapist, peadaphiles etc. .................

You won't find any objections here to testing on Michael Jackson. Of course I'm not sure that really qualifies as "human" testing.
 
might be difficult to test the effect of venom on plastic?
 
C'mon guys Michael just wants the world to live in peace remember.
 
You could always test on steve irwin, be ironic eh? [ducks for cover] :p
 
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