RP Argument...

[Jungle_Freak]

Reduced Pattern Jungle bred by me years ago
Selective bred and natural variation , IE Not genetic

Reduced pattern Coastal ie prossie carpet owned by Rick Brooksby
Selective bred and natural variation , IE Not genetic

RPM photo from Simon Stone
A genetic Co Dom morph

 

[TigerCoastal]

so are "RPM"s the only co-dom trait?

 

[Cheyne_Jones]

Nope, Zebra morph over seas has a super form which is a completely patternless snake... More and more will eventually pop up over time...

 

[jahan]

"Reduced pattern Coastal ie prossie carpet owned by Rick Brooksby
Selective bred and natural variation , IE Not genetic"
I can remember a breeder in vic selling prossies that were called "rp prossies" nearly 15yrs ago,just like Ricks.

 

[Jungle_Freak]

Thats correct Jahan
RP prossies occur in the wild and have been selective bred in captivity for ages .
But are not Co Dom genetic .

RPM are Co Dom

 

[BARRAMUNDI]

So if people can grasp the 2 difinitions
DENINTION ONE . Reduced pattern ie in prossie carpet and in some jungles but is not genetic ,
ie selective bred usually in jungles or in the case of prossie carpets just part of natural variation within wild populations for that locality .

DEFINITION TWO . RPM as in Reduced Pattern Morph that is genetic , ie Co dom inheritance

hope that clears that up
cheers
Roger

Spot on correct and easy for all to understand.... We should stick to referencing RP and RPMs by this definition.

 

[Southside Morelia]

A couple of examples of my RP's.....RP Prossie & RP Jungle (Roger Bred). I would refer to the jungle as RP due to full dorsal stripe and no pattern linking the saddles....What do you guys think?
I love the reduced banding on yours Col and Marks old boy...stunning!

 

[syeph8]

I agree Col but i would still class marks spiderman and spidergirl as reduced patterned jungles ,
But they are not genetic mutations for there patterns , LOOKS etc.
Unlike true RPM morphs which are Co Dom genetically inherited etc
So if people can grasp the 2 difinitions
DENINTION ONE . Reduced pattern ie in prossie carpet and in some jungles but is not genetic ,
ie selective bred usually in jungles or in the case of prossie carpets just part of natural variation within wild populations for that locality .

DEFINITION TWO . RPM as in Reduced Pattern Morph that is genetic , ie Co dom inheritance

hope that clears that up
cheers
Roger

well put. having said that. the simple addition of this label on either of the two definitions of RP or RPM automatically raises the price tag to between 3-5.5k. so at what point is a jungle worth 3-5.5k? keeping in mind the two definitions above (i am under the impression that the RPM line originating from cutting edge reptiles (Brett Zacar?) fall under category 1 and that there are no pure cheynei that fall into category 2 either. correct me if i am wrong but i am under the impression that the second definition only exists in relation to RPM in true jags). but either way i would be looking for a very high % of yellow before forking out top dollar unless i was 100% guaranteed it fell into the second definition.

 

[BARRAMUNDI]

Fair call there Syeph.
However when people like Roger, Col, Brett, Scott and others have outlayed big dollars for pure carpets and selectively bred for a RP look over multiple generations to refine the desired trait, their price tag can be just as deserving as the high prices on true RPMs.

Each are worth what the owners sell them for. The question is, is the buyer willing to pay the asking price. IMO they (RP and RPM) are both worth good money, some agree and some disagree, each to their own.

What the punters need to decide is what do they want to achieve from their purchase. Do they want pure pretty RP carpets that can produce offspring of similar quality. OR Do they want pretty mixed line RPM carpets with a multitude of colour and pattern possibilities in future breeding scenarios.

Both have their pros and cons......

 

[syeph8]

Fair call there Syeph.
However when people like Roger, Col, Brett, Scott and others have outlayed big dollars for pure carpets and selectively bred for a RP look over multiple generations to refine the desired trait, their price tag can be just as deserving as the high prices on true RPMs.

Each are worth what the owners sell them for. The question is, is the buyer willing to pay the asking price. IMO they (RP and RPM) are both worth good money, some agree and some disagree, each to their own.

What the punters need to decide is what do they want to achieve from their purchase. Do they want pure pretty RP carpets that can produce offspring of similar quality. OR Do they want pretty mixed line RPM carpets with a multitude of colour and pattern possibilities in future breeding scenarios.

Both have their pros and cons......

agreed. as previously stated, the whole argument has a tendency to be very subjective. I agree completely that a lot of money and fantastc hard work has gone into producing selective bred pure carpets and believe that the breeders mentioned above deserve props for all their hard work and they do have some fantastic animals (never seen any of rogers) that i would consider worth the money as they seem to have the right patterns (or reduction thereof) for my standards. its more those that are selling ones with a stripe and bit extra yellow (approx 45% of yellow on ther back) as RP's that i would personally not consider worth the money. others may and good on them and good luck to the breeder on the future development of his/her line. but the real question is in this case, if they are getting there but not quite there? how much are they worth and how should they be labelled?

 

[BARRAMUNDI]

Very grey area isnt it. I think the photos posted by Roger are the benchmarks. Animals of that quality are worth the money currently asked by breeders.

But like you say how do we grade and price the animals that are reduced but are not quite the benchmark. Simple, they look fractionally better than standard wild type animals, therefore they are worth a fraction more. As the quality increases so does the price. Although quality is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Jungle_Freak]

agreed. as previously stated, the whole argument has a tendency to be very subjective. I agree completely that a lot of money and fantastc hard work has gone into producing selective bred pure carpets and believe that the breeders mentioned above deserve props for all their hard work and they do have some fantastic animals (never seen any of rogers) that i would consider worth the money as they seem to have the right patterns (or reduction thereof) for my standards. its more those that are selling ones with a stripe and bit extra yellow (approx 45% of yellow on ther back) as RP's that i would personally not consider worth the money. others may and good on them and good luck to the breeder on the future development of his/her line. but the real question is in this case, if they are getting there but not quite there? how much are they worth and how should they be labelled?

I actually sold Brett Zaccar dozens of jungles and a pair of prossie carpets also, years ago , he also aquired stock from other breeders like Simon Stone and Joel faustino who is renown for his RP prossies .

Just thought i would point that out , Brett has bred his carpets from our stock as well as other breeders ?

 

[syeph8]

I actually sold Brett Zaccar dozens of jungles and a pair of prossie carpets also, years ago , he also aquired stock from other breeders like Simon Stone and Joel faustino who is renown for his RP prossies .

Just thought i would point that out , Brett has only bred his carpets from our stock ?????

i guess that would depend on how long he spent refining it? for example. im hoping to buy an SXR jungle soon from another member on this site. if i breed with my male and then breed the offspring back into SXR line or even back into my male and keep refining this way. who's bloodline woudl it be? i would never deny the hard work gone into them before i got them. but if it takes more than a few generations of selective breeding. does it not become your bloodine? im wondering (purely because i am ignorant, not debating any point) where this line is drawn? at what point did the jungles you acquired become your bloodline and not that of their forebears?

 

[Contagion]

I think it comes down to what you're breeding for in the way of specific traits. If you're simply reproducing the same type of animal from SXR stock, then it would remain an SXR linage. Whereas if you were breeding for things such as striping or other pattern varients from the original stock then if would become your own line with the founding stock being of SXR origins.

Likewise if you were to breed SXR jungles with Krauss line stock, then it's simple a mix of the two linages. You would then need to hold back offspring from that pairing and breed it over several generations for a particular appearance for it to become your own line, but again you can't just ignor the origins. I feel strongly that anyone who breeds for their own line should give reference to the breeder of the founding stock. If your animals become something completely different to the founding stock then you could claim it to be your own, but this would have to be something along the lines of starting with mostly banded or randomised patterning and ending up with a mostly striped animal.

But again, it's a bit of a grey area, because there's no set point to where an animal becomes "your line". But if you're not changing anything specific about the types of animals you're producing then I don't see how it can be your own line.

My opinion anyway.

As far as the RP/RPM debate goes, Roger has already nailed that one.

Pricewise, an animal is worth what someone is willing to pay. It all depends on what someone is looking for in an animal.

 

[Guest]

Well said Contagion

 

[Southside Morelia]

I feel strongly that anyone who breeds for their own line should give reference to the breeder of the founding stock. If your animals become something completely different to the founding stock then you could claim it to be your own, but this would have to be something along the lines of starting with mostly banded or randomised patterning and ending up with a mostly striped animal.
As far as the RP/RPM debate goes, Roger has already nailed that one.

Pricewise, an animal is worth what someone is willing to pay. It all depends on what someone is looking for in an animal.

100% CORRECT Contagion... If my guys go this season...it's not my doing it is Rogers and others and I am am proud to say it's their line until years and years to come, as you say, refined and selective breeding has produced something different to the original look.

Why wouldn't you acknowledge the original breeder anyways?? This ego debate still spins me out.
Comprehend this, i breed my animals, they look awesome, people like them and buy them, I bred them, BUT someone already put years of refining into producing those traits from the animals I just bred... Those breeders SHOULD be recognised!! I didn't put in the years prior, just the last few.....

 

[syeph8]

100% CORRECT Contagion... If my guys go this season...it's not my doing it is Rogers and others and I am am proud to say it's their line until years and years to come, as you say, refined and selective breeding has produced something different to the original look.

Why wouldn't you acknowledge the original breeder anyways?? This ego debate still spins me out.
Comprehend this, i breed my animals, they look awesome, people like them and buy them, I bred them, BUT someone already put years of refining into producing those traits from the animals I just bred... Those breeders SHOULD be recognised!! I didn't put in the years prior, just the last few.....

completely agree with everything above. but that doesnt quite cover the whole question and i would still like a little more input and concensus on this particular topic. At what point does it stop becomming relevant? for example with krausse lines or SXR lines? I'm sure at some point it just becomes pure locality and not a breeder seeings as they had to be wild caught at some stage. but does anyboy know where these lines originated? again, purely speculative questions and not oppinionated rhetorical questions.

 

[Southside Morelia]

I don't know matey.. Now we are really starting to split hairs in the hobby with these questions I guess and it is a precedence.
It's only because we are smarter and like to regiment everything in life...maybe lets go with the flow and give people credit where its due and enjoy the hobby for what's its worth..which is looking and enjoy keeping herps...LOL

But I do see the point when it comes down to claiming ones right to a different trait etc..that's when patenting and the likes springs to mind. Now that's a different topic and story altogether..LOL

completely agree with everything above. but that doesnt quite cover the whole question and i would still like a little more input and concensus on this particular topic. At what point does it stop becomming relevant? for example with krausse lines or SXR lines? I'm sure at some point it just becomes pure locality and not a breeder seeings as they had to be wild caught at some stage. but does anyboy know where these lines originated? again, purely speculative questions and not oppinionated rhetorical questions.

 

[syeph8]

lol yeah I do tend to dive a little too deep sometimes. thought i would give people something to think about. or answer if they knew the answers.

I don't know matey.. Now we are really starting to split hairs in the hobby with these questions I guess and it is a precedence.
It's only because we are smarter and like to regiment everything in life...maybe lets go with the flow and give people credit where its due and enjoy the hobby for what's its worth..which is looking and enjoy keeping herps...LOL

But I do see the point when it comes down to claiming ones right to a different trait etc..that's when patenting and the likes springs to mind. Now that's a different topic and story altogether..LOL

 

[Pike01]

So are these reduced pattern.