Safe Defrosting of Frozen Rats (refresher course)

[Snakelove]

Yep, I use the ziplock bags for rabbits for my Olive pair, think I got them from Coles. They could easily fit 3-4 rabbits but they're a little more expensive, from memory they're $3-$4 for a pack of 10 or 15....

Do you re-use them or throw it out after each time you use it?

 

[shortstuff61]

Those bags sure as hell minimise the smell once the prey items are defrosted though.

 

[shortstuff61]

Throw them out, but I guess if they were cleaned in hot enough water without damaging them they could be used again.

 

[zuesowns]

From freezer, I place rodents in plastic bag similar to the ones you put vegs in at supermarkets, place in tub of hot tap water until fully thawed and warm in the middle.

Reason I place them in plastic bags is because 1 of my ants doesn't like her rodents wet, must be fully dry. Also the larger rats thaw and water remains in the bag from frozen anyway which provides hydration for my bigger pythons - which doesn't have an issue with his rodents being wet.

 

[crocodile_dan]

As far as heat and protein...

Heat causes a denaturation of the protein by agitating the peptide chain and breaking the week bonds that stabilize the structure. A denatured protein is biologically inactive and no longer able to function. Protein function is determined by their structure. By breaking the weak bonds the protein will not have the neccessary structure to undertake the required function, but the amino acid chain will still be intact. In digestion, proteins are not directly taken into the cell, they are broken down into their amino acids for uptake into the cell where they are used to create proteins. So heat will not affect the uptake of amino acids (protein) from food into the body, as far as 'cooking' reducing the nutritional value (vitamins and minerals) of a meal I'm not sure.

To give an idea of protein structure:
There are four stages of protein structure. Firstly imagine a protein as a length of rope made up of a unique sequence of amino acids, this is the primary structure. This primary structure then coils or folds, held inplace by weak hydrogen bonds, this is the secondary structure. Then imagine the now coiled folded piece of rope is tangled and twisted into a big messy clump, this is the tertiary structure. Then finally multiple tertiary structures can interact, imagine 3 clumps of rope together, this is the quaternary structure.

 

[Kristy_07]

Thanks, croc-dan.

As far as cooking reducing nutritional value, I think a fair amount of research has been done on this topic, although I'm not sure of the specifics. But there are now whole diets based on "raw foods" because of the changes that occur in cooking above certain temperatures.

 

[slim6y]

good information crocodile_dan - I seem to recall hearing that in Chem 101 - shame I never remembered any of this stuff tho

Re-using resealable bags is the environmentally friendly way.... but most definitely not recommended.

 

[slim6y]

Thanks, croc-dan.

As far as cooking reducing nutritional value, I think a fair amount of research has been done on this topic, although I'm not sure of the specifics. But there are now whole diets based on "raw foods" because of the changes that occur in cooking above certain temperatures.

My GF keeps telling me carrots are better for you 'cooked'...

I've never looked into it - biochem has never been my forte'.

But as hot water and rats go - surely there is insufficient heat to provide the energy to change protein molecules...

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

After the heated debate yesterday I would just like to add something. Leaving them at room temperature means exactly that, you will have lower room temps in Victoria than you would up north. I would not want a newbie to follow my advice and feed a thawed animal that has been sitting in the Queensland heat. Victoria very seldom has nights that are in the high twenties. Keep this in mind when thawing frozen food overnight in NSW, Qld, NT and WA. I can understand why some get so worked up about telling people they can thaw out their frozen foods overnight. It's more practical in Victoria. I have also not noticed any difference in the feeding response between food that is offered warm versus food that came straight out of the fridge. Snakes are conditioned by their keepers to have good feeding responses. Our snakes cages are only opened twice a week, for feeding and cleaning. I believe fully that this is the reason for their extreme feeding response.

 

[Kristy_07]

My GF keeps telling me carrots are better for you 'cooked'...

I've never looked into it - biochem has never been my forte'.

But as hot water and rats go - surely there is insufficient heat to provide the energy to change protein molecules...

I'm not sure about the carrots But, I agree about the hot tap water. I originally comment because pythonmum mentioned she'd once heated a rat from a hot water source that made the rat burst and cook, but the snake ate it anyway. I had always thought cooked food would be bad for snakes, and brought the point up to clarify.

I think the idea behind the "raw food diets" is that things can still be eaten if cooked under 100 deg C, or something like that. So, by that standard, tap water wouldn't be cooking to the point of changing anything in the food at a chemical or molecular level (I don't think!?).

 

[crocodile_dan]

Slim, yeah that was my 1st year biology last year that got covered in 2 or 3 courses, we never touched much on nutrition but that is one of next year's courses.
Kristy, based on my small understanding of nutrition I agree with you that there is a reduction in nutritional value from cooking but as said I have not studied the specifics of it yet so I can't really contribute any valid information.

 

[pythons73]

So Wokka feeding that amount if any snake doesnt want a feed that day,do you just leave them til he following week,or try again once the others have had a feed......Now that i dont own as many..i just thaw in hot water,which generally takes 10-15minutes-thats for weaner rats...Obviously it wont take long for smaller items....

 

[wokka]

We clean and water the next day so any uneaten food item is removed and thrown out and recorded as a refusal. We dont feed anything that is blue or shedding and throw out far less than 1% of food offered. Most food is eaten within a hour of being frozen.0.5 to kilo rabbits thaw within an hour but may need a water change. We feed everything wet and I know if we have a fussy feeder they definitely eat bettter if the food is warm.

 

[pythonmum]

About raw vs cooked food. As has been pointed out, basic proteins are broken down. Cooking actually starts the process, so you gain more calories from cooked than uncooked food if eating exactily the same amount. This is part of the reason why people on strict raw food diets lose weight. Heating can affect some vitamins - I believe vitamin C is adversely affected. A single cooked meal does not harm a snake, but I certainly have no plans to EVER thaw in water which is too hot again!

 

[crocodile_dan]

pythonmum, i was not condoning you for feeding a 'cooked' rat if my post came across as such, it was simple giving information relevant to the topic at hand. as stated it has no effect on protein uptake, but does have a slight decrease in some nutritional aspects. feeding as a once off practise due to a mistake in food prep would not have a detrimental effect unless the food item was spoiled (which i beleive in this case it was not). hypothetically if an organism was fed primarily on cooked meals they would have a defficiency of essential nutrients, and that is possibly good message to portray to other people unaware of this issue who read these posts. I am not criticizing you or any others as to do so would be ignorant, I am simply providing information that is not directed at anyone.

 

[Kristy_07]

About raw vs cooked food. As has been pointed out, basic proteins are broken down. Cooking actually starts the process, so you gain more calories from cooked than uncooked food if eating exactily the same amount. This is part of the reason why people on strict raw food diets lose weight. Heating can affect some vitamins - I believe vitamin C is adversely affected. A single cooked meal does not harm a snake, but I certainly have no plans to EVER thaw in water which is too hot again!

Sorry if anything I said came across as judgemental, pythonmum. I just thought it was a good point to raise - that water that is too hot can cook food items, and cooking changes the nutritional value and protein structure within the food.

 

[Kurto]

for me this topic comes down to 2 things...

1. A bucket
2. Warm water.

 

[Nighthawk]

I have also not noticed any difference in the feeding response between food that is offered warm versus food that came straight out of the fridge. Snakes are conditioned by their keepers to have good feeding responses. Our snakes cages are only opened twice a week, for feeding and cleaning. I believe fully that this is the reason for their extreme feeding response.

We have some pythons that won't feed unless it's warmed up, some that won't eat unless the food's dry (we also use the hot tapwater method), and some that really don't give one either way.
Also, I'd like to add that a lot of scientists on these threads appear to be forgetting on of the first rules of life sciences: nothing is a given, life always surprises. You'll find out today that 'this is what is' and tomorrow that no-one has a clue and it's your job to find out.

 

[dani_boy]

so if you e gonna use the water and bucket thingo how long do u leave it in and what temp

 

[dani_boy]

sorry "so if you are gonna"