Something to think about on pricing

[graffix]

Let me just start off by making it very clear I am in no way saying people should get into reptiles, or any other animal for that matter, just to make money. Passion and a sound knowledge base are critical to maintaining quality animals.

Now for my biggest pet peeve ................ Those that try to make a quick buck of their excess animals.

A scenario that is played over time and time again is where a hobbyist has produced some offspring, has a look online ans sees they are selling for (let's just say) $100 ea so a brainstorm says "I will sell mine for $80 ea and sell them all, quickly".

Sure, this strategy works. Who doesn't want a bargain right ?

The problem is that person has just set the new "price" for that animal because those selling theirs for $100 can't sell theirs so they often have to match the price to move their offspring. Then the revolving door comes around again and the scenario is repeated. Withing just a few short years the price has dropped from $100 ea to $50 ea, then $40 ea, then 4 for $100 etc etc to the point where it costs more to produce these animals than you get in return.

As I stated right at the beginning this industry shouldn't be about the money and I stand by that, but I have seen this scenario played out in other areas of the pet trade where animals simply disappear from the pet trade because they are rendered "worthless".

I don't give a rats backside that those that just tried to line their own pockets quickly now have animals they have trouble selling, but they screw those that are truly passionate about what they do and have their animals welfare foremost in their mind.

The "impulse" buy is where we will run into problems. There will be animals purchased at a minimal cost and house inadequately. people will stumble at spending a couple hundred dollars on a set up for a critter that only cost $20.

There will always be those that have situations arise that call for urgent sales, that's unavoidable and creates a genuine bargain.

All I ask is that people take a look at the bigger picture. You cannot control what happens to your animals once you have sold them on, while the vast majority of new owners are commendable it only takes a few to hurt a thriving and quality industry.

Roast away if you like, but let's stick with facts.

 

[Khagan]

Quality animals will always sell regardless of how many cheaper ones are around. If faced with the choice i'd rather pay the little extra from some reputable, than some cheapy from joe blogs.

 

[mad_at_arms]

Good breeders prices will remain firm because of a few things.

• reputation
• ongoing advice
• quality specimens

My last gecko I bought was not advertised, I enquired as to if they had any available.
I didn't ask price until we were filling out paperwork.

 

[JAS101]

not everyone who sells reptiles at a " cheaper price " is in it for the money .

 

[Chris1]

i think that teh super cheap bargain animals are often from unplanned pairings of not particularly hot animals and the seller knows they have no chance of getting a great price.

and buyers that have done their research know this and still look for the better animals and pay the higher price,..i know i do,....(and i wouldnt pair up any of my average animals either)

maybe its a good thing really, this is the first year since i joined APS where i havent seen thousands or average animals flooding the market, probably cos joe with all the average animals realised last year he isnt gonna make the quick buck he had in previous years.

it seems people are aiming for quality over quantity this year,...

 

[snakelady96]

I believe that people who truly have a great passion for keeping/breeding reptiles will pay more for the quality. For example when im browsing a forum like rdu and i am after a particular reptile like say a black headed python, if i see one that the title comes across pretty standard priced between $400-$600 i'd think that be pretty reasonable standard healthy reptile. But then if i saw one the same sort of title and description but priced from $100-$300 thereabouts id think- well is the person just selling for a quick sale or is there something wrong the snake? You just dont know, they can say whatever they want to on the phone which is why i personally prefer to pay extra from a breeder/keeper that i can ask around about and have good comments than someone who is selling cheap and no-one knows a thing about them. I think that when anyone sells another reptile it must be eating ok, shedding ok, and fairly good size for its age. It's quite understandable that some reptiles will be a bugger to feed or might be a bit overweight or underweight but these things need to be said to the buyer before they give the final ok i will buy the reptile.

 

[JAS101]

the other thing is just because one person thinks a animal is avarage looking , duznt mean another person will too .

 

[Wrightpython]

so if i give my animals away does that mean the people who get them( who would otherwise not be able to afford them)will not have the means to house and look after them properly or does it mean they will have more money to spend on their wellbeing after the transaction. You only have to watch the news and see the puppy farms to see what money does to the pet trade. i was at the first meetings in NSW when the ahs were discussing licencing and the biggest thing npw didnt want was a price on each animals head which is why petshops are not allowed to sell reptiles. what is the difference between petshops selling an animal to joe blow for $100.00 or a breeder selling 1000 snakes a year for $100 each to 1000 joe blows, they dont often care who they sell to as long as they have a licence, which is to easy to get. what is to stop a breeder using non licenced animals to breed and then selling on the offspring. i know of one breeder who has 2 pairs of bhp on licence but last year sold 65 hatchlings. must just be good breeders i guess. when money is involved people often just get greedy, i thought we were in the hobby for the love of reptiles, frogs turtles etc not to make a dollar. If as stated it is often more expensive to breed them than what you get for the offspring the answer is simple dont breed them

 

[-Katana-]

Just like breeding any animal there will be standout individuals and there will be those that are referred to as "pets".
The pet quality/average animals will always a cheaper price because it's better to accept a cheaper price for the animal and get it settled with new owners - who would no doubt give it more attention - than it is for the animal to still be at the breeders a year or more on.
Average, cheaper animals play their part in the hobby by being entry level pets for the new keeper and they're good ambassadors for herping by breaking down the barriers of fear that the public have for snakes in general.
That role should never be looked down upon.

 

[graffix]

when money is involved people often just get greedy, i thought we were in the hobby for the love of reptiles, frogs turtles etc not to make a dollar. If as stated it is often more expensive to breed them than what you get for the offspring the answer is simple dont breed them

My point exactly ! When they don't get bred the animals slowly vanish from the hobby.

I guess I didn't make my point very clear. All I was trying to get people to think about was the sustainability of the ANIMALS, not the dollar trade. I have seen this happen time and time again in other areas of the pet trade and it frustrates the hell out of me. The bird side of the pet trade is a prime example. Many species you just can't find because they became to common and invaluable so people stopped breeding and keeping them. THIS IS MY POINT. it all came back to the value of these animals. I have been in the pet trade in various forms for over 20 years and it is alarming to see how often this happens.

On that note, I don't breed any herps at all now, keep them yes, but not breeding any more. So obviously it is not about money for me. I have also given many young to new enthusiasts with as much of a set up as I can and still keep in contact with advice with the owners.

I am preaching to the converted obviously as all posts (IMO) are exactly the way it should be.

I'm not saying every reptile, amphibian will vanish at all, but some may be at risk in a few years.

 

[wokka]

There are various markets out there. Some breeders chase the cheapest market and have a stategy of discounting until the animals sell whilst others dont want to service that section of the market because there is more likely to be problems if the new owners decisions are only price driven. Like others have said before ther is more to pricing an animal than what it looks like.On going service after the transaction incurrs a cost to the provider. To me reputation is very important and i prefer to deal with breeders who put something back into the hobby by supporting all sectors of the hobby like societies, shows, forums and magazines.

 

[Elapidae1]

"The problem is that person has just set the new "price" for that animal because those selling theirs for $100 can't sell theirs so they often have to match the price to move their offspring. Then the revolving door comes around again and the scenario is repeated. Withing just a few short years the price has dropped from $100 ea to $50 ea, then $40 ea, then 4 for $100 etc etc to the point where it costs more to produce these animals than you get in return.

As I stated right at the beginning this industry shouldn't be about the money and I stand by that, but I have seen this scenario played out in other areas of the pet trade where animals simply disappear from the pet trade because they are rendered "worthless".


This statement would suggest that money is the driving force for breeding reptiles and contradicts what you are trying to say.
If an animal is lost to the market due to low pricing and % of return on stock sold, then passion had already been lost to profit.

 

[Wrightpython]

As i have stated before i have never sold a snake or bought one for myself and i am hoping i never will. i have given away more than i can count and released hundereds of death adders, rbb, pale heads, highland copperheads and tigers all captive bred from wild parents. i was one of the first 10 members of Hawk herp Society way back 15 years or so ago when it all started. Back then when there was no licencing members would swap animals or give them away and there was always keen interest in many species. If people are going to breed designer snakes and put many years into there breeding programs then i guess its fine for them to recoup some money but if people are only breeding for the money then its wrong. Have you seen the way commercial breeders keep their animals, little tiny tubs in racks, they dont have room to stretch out they dont get to explore new territory and new smells, have you ever heard of commercial breeders taking there snakes out for a slither on the lawn, it would be to time consuming, if you want to purchase a new snake great but i would urge to buy of another hobbyist as apposed to some one who breeds just for the money.

when i said the answer is simple dont breed them if it is to expensive and you dont get money back what cost is there in breeding them. if you keep an animal lets say Death Adders and you enjoy keeping Death Adders then breeding is not your priority and only an added extra to your enjoyment so it has not cost you anything. if a certain breed is no longer commercially viable does not mean it will disappear into history books it just means that only those people who show a genuine interest in that breed will be keeping them and they will inevitably breed them and then there would be enough animals for other genuinly interested people. Swings and Roundabouts. Why are they trying to catch so many Oenpellies is it just for there own captive interests or is it to make lots of money. do they have that breeds wellbeing at heart or there own back pockets

 

[Wally]

This topic raises it's head at this time nearly every year. Don't concern yourself with what others are doing.

 

[Exotic_Doc]

As i have stated before i have never sold a snake or bought one for myself and i am hoping i never will. i have given away more than i can count and released hundereds of death adders, rbb, pale heads, highland copperheads and tigers all captive bred from wild parents. i was one of the first 10 members of Hawk herp Society way back 15 years or so ago when it all started. Back then when there was no licencing members would swap animals or give them away and there was always keen interest in many species. If people are going to breed designer snakes and put many years into there breeding programs then i guess its fine for them to recoup some money but if people are only breeding for the money then its wrong. Have you seen the way commercial breeders keep their animals, little tiny tubs in racks, they dont have room to stretch out they dont get to explore new territory and new smells, have you ever heard of commercial breeders taking there snakes out for a slither on the lawn, it would be to time consuming, if you want to purchase a new snake great but i would urge to buy of another hobbyist as apposed to some one who breeds just for the money.

when i said the answer is simple dont breed them if it is to expensive and you dont get money back what cost is there in breeding them. if you keep an animal lets say Death Adders and you enjoy keeping Death Adders then breeding is not your priority and only an added extra to your enjoyment so it has not cost you anything. if a certain breed is no longer commercially viable does not mean it will disappear into history books it just means that only those people who show a genuine interest in that breed will be keeping them and they will inevitably breed them and then there would be enough animals for other genuinly interested people. Swings and Roundabouts. Why are they trying to catch so many Oenpellies is it just for there own captive interests or is it to make lots of money. do they have that breeds wellbeing at heart or there own back pockets

Im very sorry to be rude, but its a bit difficult to believe all of this, when i just read your other thread.

 

[Khagan]

Why are they trying to catch so many Oenpellies is it just for there own captive interests or is it to make lots of money. do they have that breeds wellbeing at heart or there own back pockets

Do you know what they are going through just to get them into captivity? Pretty sure the steps they are/have taken to establish the species in captivity isn't cheap at all, so anything they do make in the end would probably just cover that.

 

[-Katana-]

Im very sorry to be rude, but its a bit difficult to believe all of this, when i just read your other thread.

I've decided it's an attention seeking troll and I've put it on my ignore list.
Best not to feed 'em or give them attention.

Mods can we get an IP check on this character please?

 

[waruikazi]

As i have stated before i have never sold a snake or bought one for myself and i am hoping i never will. i have given away more than i can count and released hundereds of death adders, rbb, pale heads, highland copperheads and tigers all captive bred from wild parents. i was one of the first 10 members of Hawk herp Society way back 15 years or so ago when it all started. Back then when there was no licencing members would swap animals or give them away and there was always keen interest in many species. If people are going to breed designer snakes and put many years into there breeding programs then i guess its fine for them to recoup some money but if people are only breeding for the money then its wrong. Have you seen the way commercial breeders keep their animals, little tiny tubs in racks, they dont have room to stretch out they dont get to explore new territory and new smells, have you ever heard of commercial breeders taking there snakes out for a slither on the lawn, it would be to time consuming, if you want to purchase a new snake great but i would urge to buy of another hobbyist as apposed to some one who breeds just for the money.

when i said the answer is simple dont breed them if it is to expensive and you dont get money back what cost is there in breeding them. if you keep an animal lets say Death Adders and you enjoy keeping Death Adders then breeding is not your priority and only an added extra to your enjoyment so it has not cost you anything. if a certain breed is no longer commercially viable does not mean it will disappear into history books it just means that only those people who show a genuine interest in that breed will be keeping them and they will inevitably breed them and then there would be enough animals for other genuinly interested people. Swings and Roundabouts. Why are they trying to catch so many Oenpellies is it just for there own captive interests or is it to make lots of money. do they have that breeds wellbeing at heart or there own back pockets

I'm keen to hear about your releases if you don't mind expanding on it. Even if you start another thread i'm interested to know what, how and why you were doing it.

As far as Gavin Bedford's recent project is concerned. I know you were asking questions not making statements but i know there are some people out there who do think that Gavin is all about the money or accalades for the project. Anyone who thinks he's about the money really don't have a good understanding of hard a project like this is. If we just think about the travel cost for each trip, there's thousands of $$ in chopper rides in and out of the escarpment, then there's the time etc etc. I doubt that he will ever make his money back on what he has already spent on the project. Then we need to remember that he has already made his living out of reptiles, he is a full time herpetologist, that is his job he doesn't need the extra money that we imagine he is going to make.

He already has the honour of bringing atleast two new species into the pet trade (glauerts and gleobos) and had a hand in on both the albino carpets and albino olives AND the pygmy crocs. Not to mention his display of his own personal collection at croc cove. So he doesn't need anymore projects to stroke his ego.

As for the species well being, i am sure it is a major factor in this project. The likes of Greg Miles will make sure of it, Greg's conservation keeping movement will most likely be very involved.

But i think Gavin's biggest reason for this project, aside from his obvious passion for reptiles and biodiversity, is that it will benefit the local indigenous people in the West Arnhem region.

Now back on topic lol. 2011 was the first year that i have not seen people entering the hobby with a pair of snakes. If you see the over supply or drop in price as a problem i think the hobby only has itself to blame. How many years have we been seeing breeders advertising hatchlings as pairs only or discounts for 2 or more? If you see this as a problem it is of our own making, the culture that we fostered in our hobby was that of the only way you become and experienced keeper is if you breed your reptiles. Which is a load of crap.

It makes me feel great to see so many young guns joining this forum where there main passion is feild herping. Some of them don't even have their own collection yet but they can name nearly every species they find in their area and tell you when and where to find them and if they can't find them they keep on looking until they do. That is passion, none of this 'i'm breeding better snakes than you' they are finding better snakes than us. They are the real deal, it's only love there!

 

[Luvbuz]

graffix makes a valid and reasonable point. Before I got into reptiles I was (and still am) heavily involved in the breeding, showing and training of dogs. Irresponsible backyard breeders jump onto a particular breeds popularity and sell a little cheaper than reputable and registered breeders. The breed popularity shoots through the roof, becomes over-saturated, the price drops and the breed slowly dwindles. Case in point - border collies rocketed skywards after Babe and Footrot Flats, now they are back to sensible levels again, currently staffies are the breed of choice but already the price is dropping and the quality is waaaaaay off. Same with snakes and other reptiles. Personally, I located a local down-to-earth, reputable and honest breeder and mostly refuse to look at snakes apart from those he has either bought in himself or bred. I will ALWAYS pay a bigger price for a better animal, and have the patience to wait until the right one comes along. Many decisions are made by the heart and not the head - we've all done it in the past, but wisdom comes with age and I'm almost officially an old bastard now, so can speak from many decades experience. Enclosures don't need to cost a fortune either. I go to the local Lifeline of Vinnies furniture outlets and buy old TV and entertainment units for like $40, chuck them in the ute, disinfect them, add ventilation, new stronger backboards, paint or stain them if they need it and put locks on the doors and I have a really nice furniture quality display for under $100. Luckily I live in the tropics and have no need for heating coils, lighting etc - so the costs I save in enclosures I put to the new additions to my collections. Now I need to save for a bigger house to put all my snake houses in! Cheers, and never forget the real reason we all got into this game in the first place - enjoyment!!!!

 

[hrafna]

for me personally, i have no issue with spending 250 for a md rather than 80 because i know the breeder has quality animals and the after care is tops. i really don't pay attention to the el cheapo animals. only time i have is when snake ranch offered 4 or so "butt ugly" jungles for 50 each.