Which UV do you use?

[beardy_boy99]

I use an exo-terra reptisun 10.0 tube. Is this ok?
Cheers

 

[beardy_boy99]

OH, and i use it for my beardie and bluey
Cheers

 

[Pocket Lizard]

I was wondering if one of the bearded dragon breeders would be willing to run the following experiment for the benefit of all keepers?

1. Hatch out a clutch of eggs.
2. Set half the hatchlings up individually in enclosures with the recommended top-of-the-range UV lighting.
3. Set the remaining hatchlings up in enclosures with standard or cheaper lighting (eg. 2 nice bright flouro tubes, or perhaps one and an NEC blacklight) and a suitable basking spotlight of course.
4. Provide plenty of clacium and mineral supplements on their food (calcium on every feed please).
5. Document growth rates etc.
6. Report the outcomes in a journal or magazine, or at least here online.

Anyone interested in giving it a go? The results could be quite surprising.

 

[Miss B]

Interesting suggestion Pocket Lizard. I'm actually in the process of building a hatchling rack system for raising beardies individually in tubs. There will be several rows of tubs, each with their own UV tube - so theoretically it would be possible for me to raise an entire clutch of babies on two completely different sources of UV.

I've got a couple of clutches due over the next month and a half. Maybe this is something I could consider doing with one of the clutches.

 

[hugsta]

basically, all compacts shouldnt be used as they emmit uvc and extraudinaryily high amounts of uvb in their first use, which is dangerous. and run out quite quickely.

Can you point me to the scientific paper or documentation on this? I would be interested in reading these findings. I know UVC has been found in 12v decroics and can casue eye damage amogst other things, better have never heard it coming from all compact fluoros as you say.

Cheers
Daz

 

[hugsta]

I was wondering if one of the bearded dragon breeders would be willing to run the following experiment for the benefit of all keepers?

1. Hatch out a clutch of eggs.
2. Set half the hatchlings up individually in enclosures with the recommended top-of-the-range UV lighting.
3. Set the remaining hatchlings up in enclosures with standard or cheaper lighting (eg. 2 nice bright flouro tubes, or perhaps one and an NEC blacklight) and a suitable basking spotlight of course.
4. Provide plenty of clacium and mineral supplements on their food (calcium on every feed please).
5. Document growth rates etc.
6. Report the outcomes in a journal or magazine, or at least here online.

Anyone interested in giving it a go? The results could be quite surprising.

Yes, this would be interesting. But results would have to monitored over 10 years or more and also a study of their offspring and a couple of generations to see the ongoing effects or benefits of the trial.
It would also have to be done over multiple clutches to get a better average and also, keeping in mind, that 20 beardies from one clutch will all have different rates of growth. So that would also have to be factored in.

Cheers
Daz

 

[Pocket Lizard]

For sure Daz, it would be best to follow the animals long-term, but in the short term you would have to say that if UV is absolutely critical then you should start to see serious problems in the growth phase of an animals life. I deliberately suggested bearded dragons as their clutch size is large, so any natural variation in growth should be smoothed out across 10 or so animals. If only one animal without UV struggles then you can say it might be a "runt", but if 6 or 8 struggle (or die) then that is indicative of a problem. Provided all other housing conditions and husbandry techniques are the same, then any differences in the results can be attributed to UV. You are right that one clutch wouldn't be scientifically robust, but it would be sufficient as far as providing some baseline data for us enthusiasts from which people can further experiment themselves if they feel the need.

As far as studying future generations, what sort of problems do you expect? I assume you mean that there may be differences in actual reproductive output? Also an interesting theory. Well worth experimenting with I reckon.

Miss B, if you are willing to try such an experiment then you have my respect. Don't do it if your livelihood depends on the animals, but if your animals are a hobby like mine are then I think it is an experiment that needs to be done by someone. Whatever the outcome we will all learn something.

 

[Miss B]

You are right that one clutch wouldn't be scientifically robust, but it would be sufficient as far as providing some baseline data for us enthusiasts from which people can further experiment themselves if they feel the need.

This is kind of what I was thinking. Sure, it wouldn't be a very scientifically sound experiment, but surely if a good UV is that critical then there should definately be some sort of noticable difference in the growth rates and/or health of the hatchlings..?

At the very least, I'd find it an interesting little project even just for myself.

As far as studying future generations, what sort of problems do you expect? I assume you mean that there may be differences in actual reproductive output? Also an interesting theory. Well worth experimenting with I reckon.

I suppose this is something I can't really help with... I'm not planning on holding back an entire clutch in order to record the long-term effects throughout their entire life. At this stage it's something I don't really have the time, money and space for. If I were to do this good-UV vs bad-UV experiment it would only be over a relatively short time frame.

Miss B, if you are willing to try such an experiment then you have my respect. Don't do it if your livelihood depends on the animals, but if your animals are a hobby like mine are then I think it is an experiment that needs to be done by someone. Whatever the outcome we will all learn something.

No, it's just a hobby for me and yes, it's something I'm willing to have a crack at. That is, if you feel it would be something worth looking at even just over the short-term. And if so, any suggestions as to how I should go about it?

 

[Moreliaman]

I use the Zoomed 160w & 100w bulbs, i keep the distance to about 12" & they are only used for around 4 hrs each day.
When i use tubes i always found the metal reflectors are good for fluorescent tubes.......try this site...

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/lightingsurveyintro.htm

Theres loads of interesting stuff on UV, how its used/absorbed & about different bulbs & tubes (including the compacts) & the amount they emit at certian distances.

Theres also a link to this site on there...... http://www.testudo.cc/ where you can download a free PDF paper on UV which goes into it in some detail.

 

[JasonL]

I was wondering if one of the bearded dragon breeders would be willing to run the following experiment for the benefit of all keepers?

1. Hatch out a clutch of eggs.
2. Set half the hatchlings up individually in enclosures with the recommended top-of-the-range UV lighting.
3. Set the remaining hatchlings up in enclosures with standard or cheaper lighting (eg. 2 nice bright flouro tubes, or perhaps one and an NEC blacklight) and a suitable basking spotlight of course.
4. Provide plenty of clacium and mineral supplements on their food (calcium on every feed please).
5. Document growth rates etc.
6. Report the outcomes in a journal or magazine, or at least here online.

Anyone interested in giving it a go? The results could be quite surprising.

It is possible to raise and breed BD's without any UV at all if their diet is spot on, calcium deficiancies and growth rates are also determined by diet type and amount eaten which also has alot to do with stress / heating ect

 

[hugsta]

For sure Daz, it would be best to follow the animals long-term, but in the short term you would have to say that if UV is absolutely critical then you should start to see serious problems in the growth phase of an animals life. I deliberately suggested bearded dragons as their clutch size is large, so any natural variation in growth should be smoothed out across 10 or so animals. If only one animal without UV struggles then you can say it might be a "runt", but if 6 or 8 struggle (or die) then that is indicative of a problem. Provided all other housing conditions and husbandry techniques are the same, then any differences in the results can be attributed to UV. You are right that one clutch wouldn't be scientifically robust, but it would be sufficient as far as providing some baseline data for us enthusiasts from which people can further experiment themselves if they feel the need.

As far as studying future generations, what sort of problems do you expect? I assume you mean that there may be differences in actual reproductive output? Also an interesting theory. Well worth experimenting with I reckon.

Miss B, if you are willing to try such an experiment then you have my respect. Don't do it if your livelihood depends on the animals, but if your animals are a hobby like mine are then I think it is an experiment that needs to be done by someone. Whatever the outcome we will all learn something.

The problems you get are not so much do with productive output, as they wll still lay a similar amount of eggs, but rather the quality. ie hatchies already having low levels of calcium being born with weak/brittle bones, dying relatively quickly or not even hatching at all. Also adults, more noticable if they are producing multiple clutches, tend to produce more slugs as they have more and more clutches due to lack of calcium. They can have problems laying and become egg bound, they can also suffer metabolic bone disease. Some can get away without it for a while, but after a 5 or 6 years, normally start to show symptoms od MBD.

 

[JasonL]

I never had any of those problems with any of the hatchies I bred from UV free dragons over the last 3 years daz, always got 99 % fertile eggs and not a single clutch of slugs,all the ones I raised up were fine. This year, my dragons have had full UV, merc vapor outside and 3 -4 days a week kept outside, too early to say much yet as I will do this for the next three couple of years to get a better understanding, but there have been some mild improvements and some mild disadvantages.

 

[CodeRed]

I never had any of those problems with any of the hatchies I bred from UV free dragons over the last 3 years daz, always got 99 % fertile eggs and not a single clutch of slugs,all the ones I raised up were fine. This year, my dragons have had full UV, merc vapor outside and 3 -4 days a week kept outside, too early to say much yet as I will do this for the next three couple of years to get a better understanding, but there have been some mild improvements and some mild disadvantages.

Jason, you say you saw some mild improvements and some mild disadvantages. What specifically were they?

I have noticed that with a UV light source my dragons seem more active. But this could just be becuase the whole enslosure is much brighter and not specifically due to extra UIVA/UVB.

 

[jake61]

the 100 watt mercury vapor lamp from urs is awesome ithink its the same technology as the zoo med ones mentioned earlier.mine was $55.00. my female used to scratch at the glass until i took her to the outdoor encl.now she is content to bask inside. only suitable for big tried all brands of t8 flouro and was more happy with open 12 volt dichroics but are pretty hard toget now.

 

[Kirby]

It was a URS Compact MAX 10% UVB Globe. After 7 months of usage 14 hrs/day the results were:

6" away: 52 uW/cm^2
9" away: 25 uW/cm^2
12" away: 12 uW/cm^2

^ these results show nothing, at 6 inches, potentially too close in terms of uvc, 52 uW/cm^2 you should be wantign closer to 100+
250-300 being close to natural sun.

at their apropriate distances..

T rex active UV heat will give out 225 uW/cm^2
NEC 10 black light will give out 10 uW/cm^2
Reptisun 10.0 will give out between 70-190 at varyign ditances uW/cm^2
Powersun will give out 40 uW/cm^2
Megaray 60 watt will give out 100-200 uW/cm^2
Megaray Sb BM2 12" 360 uW/cm^2 14" 290 uW/cm^2 16" 210 uW/cm^2

the compact is putting out say enough or a turtle IMO, and i would beleive this would be be because of loose parameters in production, which is common in compact production, even tubes. although UVC is NOT tested, which is dangerous. nor are the results for each compact proven to be similar in a way that makes there results the same throughout. keep in mind, my opinion were still yet to see results from the producer.

here is a reply i made to URS here, about a PM they sent me telling me my claims were 'false and misleading'

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

it is known and tested that compacts aren’t as valuable or as safe as most tube forms, in regards to UVC and UVB out put, in first use and deterioration over time. uv.guide.co.uk has had these results from a large variety of compacts for a while. i have seen repeated problems with your compact max in regards to photo-kerato-conjunctivitis here and else were. i had used the 'outback max 10.0' with appropriate distances from the dragon over a period of 3 months (after this i gave up) my Rankin’s experienced lethargy and a decreased appetite and weight loss. All of which can relate to a uvb source. Diet heat temps or season had not changed, and faecal tests proved negative for a parasitic impact, nor does my enclosure or feeding pose risks of impaction or digestion, health or energy problems. since using a more appropriate brand 'reptisun 10.0' the Rankin’s has gained appetite, energy, and is now happy as. I am not the first to experience this.


In my personal experiences and those I’ve seen on other boards.( as to my surprise we cant discuss problems with your products as you are a sponsor.) Your line of uv (as I said before) in my opinion, is of similar quality and danger as the ESU and R-zilla. My experience with outback, ties similar problems with an 'unnamed member' of bearded dragon site, using a compact max. her dragon almost died and went through nights of intensive care which was scaled down to the inadequate uv source with her western bearded dragon.

You seem yet to have produced sufficient evidence that your line of tubes emit sufficient amounts of UVB safely, at an appropriate basking distance, being 8-10 inches. Whilst emitting this safely. i have seen FEW results on either outback max, or compact. Nor have you tested for UVC which is highly dangerous and often emitted by the 'cheaper' range of bulb.

By all means this is nothing personal against you or the company, this is my and fellow herpers experience, mixed with the knowledge to say no to a cheaper and experienced dangerous product that aren’t proven to be safe or beneficial.

A lot of this information goes for other cheap brands, repti-star and nec10 black lights. NONE have sufficient evidence. In fact the NEC produces the minimum ON the surface of the bulb, quickly depleting by 3-6 inches, no were near safe enough for a dragon, with the added danger of no UVC testing.

I know how a business works, you produce something as cheaply as possible, in order to make a profit. You can cut corners etc. and make less tight guidelines for your tubes possibly emitting more or less with each bulb. You can also refuse or not want to go into testing, or publish them. As I’m sure for safety reasons and production you would have had to test. But why is it none of this information is released?

I believe in the consumer rights of knowing exactly what a product is doing. After all the deadly substrate calci-sand is a profitable business, as is uv.


With my research and experience, as well as other herpers with your products, i am not willing to see my or anyone else’s animals be put under a uv tube that a. may not do its job properly, as we haven’t seen enough results, or b. may be harmful, or c. could be an utter waste of money.

Please provide me and the herpers of Australia with the sufficient evidence to decipher the product between, usable and safe, or dangerous and a waste of money. I don’t want an explanation of your methods or perspective on UV or its use, or what you think your product is. I want factual evidence and tests on uvb AND uvc.

Thank you


P.s. it’s not false or misleading until its proven, nor is it correct or true until proven.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i sent this off 20 odd minuets ago, well i hope we get a reply. and see some factual results.

 

[URS]

Dear Kirby,

We will post reply here today with all independent testing that was done by Ultra violet products back in 2006 at our warehouse. Do you believe that we would be that Irresponsible not to test our products before we put them on the market!
Regards Tim

It was a URS Compact MAX 10% UVB Globe. After 7 months of usage 14 hrs/day the results were:

6" away: 52 uW/cm^2
9" away: 25 uW/cm^2
12" away: 12 uW/cm^2

^ these results show nothing, at 6 inches, potentially too close in terms of uvc, 52 uW/cm^2 you should be wantign closer to 100+
250-300 being close to natural sun.

at their apropriate distances..

T rex active UV heat will give out 225 uW/cm^2
NEC 10 black light will give out 10 uW/cm^2
Reptisun 10.0 will give out between 70-190 at varyign ditances uW/cm^2
Powersun will give out 40 uW/cm^2
Megaray 60 watt will give out 100-200 uW/cm^2
Megaray Sb BM2 12" 360 uW/cm^2 14" 290 uW/cm^2 16" 210 uW/cm^2

the compact is putting out say enough or a turtle IMO, and i would beleive this would be be because of loose parameters in production, which is common in compact production, even tubes. although UVC is NOT tested, which is dangerous. nor are the results for each compact proven to be similar in a way that makes there results the same throughout. keep in mind, my opinion were still yet to see results from the producer.

here is a reply i made to URS here, about a PM they sent me telling me my claims were 'false and misleading'

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

it is known and tested that compacts aren’t as valuable or as safe as most tube forms, in regards to UVC and UVB out put, in first use and deterioration over time. uv.guide.co.uk has had these results from a large variety of compacts for a while. i have seen repeated problems with your compact max in regards to photo-kerato-conjunctivitis here and else were. i had used the 'outback max 10.0' with appropriate distances from the dragon over a period of 3 months (after this i gave up) my Rankin’s experienced lethargy and a decreased appetite and weight loss. All of which can relate to a uvb source. Diet heat temps or season had not changed, and faecal tests proved negative for a parasitic impact, nor does my enclosure or feeding pose risks of impaction or digestion, health or energy problems. since using a more appropriate brand 'reptisun 10.0' the Rankin’s has gained appetite, energy, and is now happy as. I am not the first to experience this.


In my personal experiences and those I’ve seen on other boards.( as to my surprise we cant discuss problems with your products as you are a sponsor.) Your line of uv (as I said before) in my opinion, is of similar quality and danger as the ESU and R-zilla. My experience with outback, ties similar problems with an 'unnamed member' of bearded dragon site, using a compact max. her dragon almost died and went through nights of intensive care which was scaled down to the inadequate uv source with her western bearded dragon.

You seem yet to have produced sufficient evidence that your line of tubes emit sufficient amounts of UVB safely, at an appropriate basking distance, being 8-10 inches. Whilst emitting this safely. i have seen FEW results on either outback max, or compact. Nor have you tested for UVC which is highly dangerous and often emitted by the 'cheaper' range of bulb.

By all means this is nothing personal against you or the company, this is my and fellow herpers experience, mixed with the knowledge to say no to a cheaper and experienced dangerous product that aren’t proven to be safe or beneficial.

A lot of this information goes for other cheap brands, repti-star and nec10 black lights. NONE have sufficient evidence. In fact the NEC produces the minimum ON the surface of the bulb, quickly depleting by 3-6 inches, no were near safe enough for a dragon, with the added danger of no UVC testing.

I know how a business works, you produce something as cheaply as possible, in order to make a profit. You can cut corners etc. and make less tight guidelines for your tubes possibly emitting more or less with each bulb. You can also refuse or not want to go into testing, or publish them. As I’m sure for safety reasons and production you would have had to test. But why is it none of this information is released?

I believe in the consumer rights of knowing exactly what a product is doing. After all the deadly substrate calci-sand is a profitable business, as is uv.


With my research and experience, as well as other herpers with your products, i am not willing to see my or anyone else’s animals be put under a uv tube that a. may not do its job properly, as we haven’t seen enough results, or b. may be harmful, or c. could be an utter waste of money.

Please provide me and the herpers of Australia with the sufficient evidence to decipher the product between, usable and safe, or dangerous and a waste of money. I don’t want an explanation of your methods or perspective on UV or its use, or what you think your product is. I want factual evidence and tests on uvb AND uvc.

Thank you


P.s. it’s not false or misleading until its proven, nor is it correct or true until proven.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i sent this off 20 odd minuets ago, well i hope we get a reply. and see some factual results.

 

[URS]

With respect to all our lighting products, we have had these independently tested and you will find the results on the packaging of both the Compacts and Tubes. It is surprising to hear that you have had had issues with these products as we have yet to hear any other feedback in this way. We want to supply products that are both beneficial and safe for the user and this is why we paid to have an independent tester come in and using professional testing equipment – supply us with readings which we have furthermore supplied on the box of these lighting products. Please also note that these products were also tested for UVC to which NO reading was found in any of these. We are acutely aware of the dangers of this wavelength and would never supply a product that contained this. Also, it may be interesting for you to note that, as you would know, we hold and breed thousands of animals and use these products on them. We have yet to come across ANY problem that may indicate that these lights are having a negative impact on our stock. We continually test our products in use with a hand held meter to check for degrading of the UVB so we have an idea of when to change the lighting.
Our lighting was tested by UVP in March of 2006 before we began supplying these products. I hope this has answered your queries but I guess at the end of the day it probably is not going to be sufficient evidence for you. It is only our intention to sell products that are beneficial to keepers and at an affordable price and I am sure because we do this that some people will be inclined to think our product is ‘cheap’ which is never our intention.

Regards Tim Mensforth

 

[JasonL]

Jason, you say you saw some mild improvements and some mild disadvantages. What specifically were they?

I have noticed that with a UV light source my dragons seem more active. But this could just be becuase the whole enslosure is much brighter and not specifically due to extra UIVA/UVB.

A couple of the dragons have done an extra clutch or two than usual, being outside for most of the week and being generally cooler, they are eating heaps less though not loosing any weight and still producing eggs fine though some dragons kept inside under high output UV for a few months developed eye problems, these healed when removed from the UV.

 

[Chris1]

i use a reptiglo 10 tube for the babies and sunlight on the weekends, the adults dont have a UVB light in their tank cos they just jump out and run around the house anyway so i let them out in teh sun for full days on the weekends and if i get home early enough on week nights i put them outside while its still light.

 

[CodeRed]

A couple of the dragons have done an extra clutch or two than usual, being outside for most of the week and being generally cooler, they are eating heaps less though not loosing any weight and still producing eggs fine though some dragons kept inside under high output UV for a few months developed eye problems, these healed when removed from the UV.

Thanks for that.

I have noticed that this year my females have dropped more clutches than last year. One girl has dropped 6 clutches already and its only Decemeber :shock:. Last year she did 7 clutches, this year I expect 8 or 9 :shock::shock:

The difference was this year she had a compact max 10, last year she has a mercury vapor bulb. Go figure