Why is it...

[James_Scott]

Why is legal to kill mammals such as mice and rats for the production of reptile food, but we can't do the same to skinks and frogs. Don't get me wrong, I love frogs and skinks, however there are issues with feeding mice and rats to young GTP's and I know that the top breeders feed them skinks and frogs to emulate what is done in the wild to prevent prolaps issues. Wouldn't you think if the laws are put there for the better care and understanding of our herps then they should rethink the issue of breeding frogs and skinks as food for certain herps.
Just my opinion but I would like to hear more from the people out there in APS world.

 

[sweetangel]

i think its because reptiles and frogs are protected, hence the licences and not being able to take from the wild in most states. kind of goes against that if we can just take them from the wild for food. that would be the reason

 

[ravan]

because mice/rats are vermin? and a pest? and disgusting? lol
and arent some frog species protected?

 

[Specks]

certain snakes that eats reptile and frogs the owners that have them should be allowed to breed them or buy from a breeder that breeds those animals for food. would make it alot better as those animals have been eating those type of animals for thousands of years and mice and rats arent their main diet. do it, it should become legal in my mind

 

[MarcAtterton]

I have had this conversation many times with people, i believe one reason is the fact that reps and amphibs are protected species so it does go against the whole licensing concept,

another point is yes they do eat reps and amphibs in the wild but they are now in a captive environment so hence if they cannot adjust to the captive diet maybe we as keepers shouldnt keep those animals if it proves to be doing them harm,, but i am 100% sure u can put a young GTP onto rodents just takes time and persistence

 

[webcol]

Because it is more socially acceptable to feed rodents (vermin) to pets, already in society today most people view mice and rats as disgusting. Not only that but legality wise, common rodents aren't a protected species, and most lizards and frogs are.

 

[Fireflyshuffle]

Im COMPLETLEY with MarcAtterton...if species such as green trees need to eat what they would naturally eat (frogs, skinks) they should not be kept by keeers. But because they can eat rodents at a young age, there is no need to feed frogs and skinks etc which are protected. Simple like Marc said, if they cant adjust in captivity to rodents, they shouldnt be kept. Im also 100% positive most have no trouble adjusting to rodents. you will always have ones that are finiky but you get it with every species

 

[redbellybite]

because mice/rats are vermin? and a pest? and disgusting? lol
and arent some frog species protected?

snakes are protected too but as we all know we have them in captivity...he makes a good point and it would be interesting to see what others think about it too.I dont think he meant taking frogs and skinks from the wild ,he was suggesting setting up captive breeding for food in regards to frogs and skinks...

 

[James_Scott]

Thank you. Yes definately only captive bred frogs and skinks for the dinner table. I guess we have to go back to why our native species are protected. By breeding them for food, we are not damaging wild populations, not damaging their habitat and still ensuring that our pythons are feeding on the same diet as is natural to them in the wild. Maybe you're right in saying if we have to go against the licensing agreement to keep them from getting prolapse then maybe we shouldn't have them, however wouldn't it make more sense to just make an amendment to the laws and allow certain from and skink species to be bred for food to protect the species in captivity (GTP)

 

[PhilK]

I do agree captive bred food frogs and skinks would be a good idea for trouble feeders etc, but there is no need because the snake we keep adapt to rodents.

Also, I hate the "natural in the wild" argument. If you are so adamant to keep your snake on a natural wild diet, release it. Also, give it worms and ticks.

 

[Ramsayi]

A few comments to do with gtps have been made in this thread.I don't know of any breeders who start them on skinks as there is absolutely no need to.If any are doing it then they certainly are not top breeders.

 

[James_Scott]

Ramsayi: If you look at Mike Swans book, Breeding Australian Pythons, Adrian Hemmens mentions the feeding of frogs and skinks to trouble feeders. As does Michael Cermak in his article on GTP husbandry in Reptiles Australia Magazine. Do they quality as top breeders?

It was these two publications from such well known herpetologists that prompted my questioning on the subject. If I have misread them in anyway please correct me.

 

[James_Scott]

I should also state that this practice is being done (not by myself) with problem hatchies only and they all do adjust over time to mice and rats. This has been proven to stop prolapse in GTP and if bred for food, I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be made legal.

 

[Sturdy]

use asian house geckos???

 

[James_Scott]

use asian house geckos???

Sounds like a great idea to me. Freeze them to kill off parasites and they should be fine.
Are these protected and is there any law prohibiting this? It's a shame Cain toads are so deadly to snakes!

 

[Fireflyshuffle]

quite the obvious that you have read alot of books, such as mike swan, which yes, tells you about the feeding of gtp in there, but have you spoken to mike swan in person to find out more than just the words out of hes book?(which anyone can read and tak advantage of it)..Not meaning to be rude but as ramsayi said hes never known any gtp to have to start with skinks.theres no need to use such items

 

[Ramsayi]

Haven't read the book but I stand by my comment.What exactly is written in the book about it?

 

[Poggle]

There are scenting products you can buy to make mice smell like skings etc .. dont know if that would help

 

[James_Scott]

scenting products don't change the effects of prolapse however if you can get them onto mice without prolapse then I'm sure we all would support it.
I can't remember exact what A. Hemmens says in his chapter on GTPs, but I know Michael Cermak in his article states the neccessity of feeding hatchlings frogs and skinks to prevent prolapse and makes a point to not challenge the legality of it. Not breeding GTP's myself I want to get as much research as possible before parting with a lot of cash just to find myself with a GTP with prolapse problems.
I don't want to be missunderstood here, if raising GTP hatchlings on mice without the effects of Prolapse then I agree there is no need to feed them anything else. But if that is the case what causes prolapse in GTP's?

 

[Poggle]

Prolapse refers to a condition where part of an animals intenstine is exposed outside of the body. It most often occurs in green tree pythons when they are fed too large of meals, but can happen during egg laying as well. If you have never witnessed a prolapse before, it can be one of the scariest things you have ever seen. Even if you have seen it, it should be considered to be a serious thing since if left untreated it will result in a dead animal. This is another reason to visually check your animals daily; the sooner this condition is discovered the better the prognosis

- http://www.pythons.ddarsow.com/index.php?page=problems